I may have to side with the Empire : V

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:17 pm

I know they were going to cut off my head in the beginning of the game. However the more I hear Stormcloaks talking about how Skyrim is for the Nords etc, the more I begin to think they are racists and ethnic cleansers most likely. Tulani the Wood Elf believes that Skyrim should be for all, Redguard and Khajit alike, not just for the Nords. Once again, I am not certain I will side with the Empire, but it is looking more and more like it as I hear more of Ulfric's rhetoric.

Any opinions out there?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:59 am

Yeah there are dozens http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&search_in=forums

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:11 pm

do whatever you feel like, i went storm cloak myself, the empire has become the thalmor's [censored], i didn't like tulius at all. Also i don't think that the whole of the storm cloaks are racist, alot of the new jarls get non nord advisors in thier castles/huts.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:46 pm

Remember it wasn't the Empire that sent you to the block, it was that b**** of a captain who sent you there, even though you weren't on the list, and the Stormcloaks that crossed your path on the border of Skyrim got you put on the wagon. Hadvar wanted you to live, as you weren't on the list, meaning you were probably not with the rebels.

Hadvar also seems alot more friendly than Ralof when you consider how they speak. Ralof is kinda dismal and ready to accept death during the execution, which is kinda creepy, then he urges you to fight for a cause that got you put on the wagon in the first place.

Ulfric is a racist, but he only tolerates the presence of other races. Kinda like the white people in the Deep South (stereotype I know, but based on my sister's experience in college when she studied there as an educational policy lawyer [cause the schools down there are really f****ed up], totally true.)

Ulfric also kinda mirrors the Confederacy during the U.S. Civil War. The Stormcloak rebels wanna secede and they only want civil rights for the Nords.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:21 am

I really found hadvar to be nice and reasoning. He didn't want me to got to the block and after you follow him through to the barracks, he actually tries to reason with the stormcloaks.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:53 pm

I know they were going to cut off my head in the beginning of the game. However the more I hear Stormcloaks talking about how Skyrim is for the Nords etc, the more I begin to think they are racists and ethnic cleansers most likely. Tulani the Wood Elf believes that Skyrim should be for all, Redguard and Khajit alike, not just for the Nords. Once again, I am not certain I will side with the Empire, but it is looking more and more like it as I hear more of Ulfric's rhetoric.

Any opinions out there?

Yes if you are not a Nord or a racist you shouldn't support the Stormcloaks. Ulfric hates all non Nords, and he has put all the Dark Elves of Windhelm in slums. Also the Nords of Windhelm won't even let the Argonians in the city and won't pay them as much as a Nord. This is near slavery. Plus if Ulfric wins the war there is no telling what he will do, he will probably end up purging Skyrim of all non Nord races. This cannot be tolerated, imagine a game where everyone character is the same race. The Empire didn't try to behead you, that was all the doing of a corrupt Captain which ends up dying anyway. Plus what they did to the Forsworn is unjust, and what the Nords in general did to the snow elves is unjust. Stormcloaks are evil, simple as that.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:20 am

Yes if you are not a Nord or a racist you shouldn't support the Stormcloaks. Ulfric hates all non Nords, and he has put all the Dark Elves of Windhelm in slums. Also the Nords of Windhelm won't even let the Argonians in the city and won't pay them as much as a Nord. This is near slavery. Plus if Ulfric wins the war there is no telling what he will do, he will probably end up purging Skyrim of all non Nord races. This cannot be tolerated, imagine a game where everyone character is the same race. The Empire didn't try to behead you, that was all the doing of a corrupt Captain which ends up dying anyway. Plus what they did to the Forsworn is unjust, and what the Nords in general did to the snow elves is unjust. Stormcloaks are evil, simple as that.

The Dwemer hurt the Falmer, not the Nords. Ulfric never shows any sign of wanting to kill all Non Nords, hell there are quite a few non Nords walking around in Windhelm and not all of them are in the slums. Khajiit aren't let into any city, including Imperial cities so adding Argonians doesn't change that much.
The Empire may not have tried to kill you at the start, but Tullius who was there certainly didn't intervene.

You are right that Ulfric shows love primarily for Nords, and the rest second if at all, but it's not quite as bad as you're trying to make it sound.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:36 am

I really found hadvar to be nice and reasoning. He didn't want me to got to the block and after you follow him through to the barracks, he actually tries to reason with the stormcloaks.

pretty much this. the empire isn't "evil" or something, just because ONE legat or something is a total dike.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:39 pm

The Dwemer hurt the Falmer, not the Nords.

The reason the Falmer sought refuge with the Dwemer is because the Nords hunted them to the verge of extinction after the Night of Tears (when the Falmer butchered the population of the oldest Nord city in Skyrim - the first ruin you explore with the College).

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:51 am

The reason the Falmer sought refuge with the Dwemer is because the Nords hunted them to the verge of extinction after the Night of Tears (when the Falmer butchered the population of the oldest Nord city in Skyrim - the first ruin you explore with the College).

Which just means that they were at war with one another. Nothing strange about that happens all the time, and if we start hating races because of war then honestly there isn't a single race in TES you can play as. The Dwemer subjagated them into slavery and changed them completely however.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:13 pm

What chance does Ulfric think he has, when the Thalmor march in and take Skyrim wholesale? He's playing his people, rousing their indignation over slights real and imagined, in an attempt to gain power for himself. And if he becomes king, then what? He has his crown, which might afford him some immunity, but his people are screwed. Realistically, the only protection Skyrim has as a free province is with the Empire--and if the Empire with all its resources barely avoided complete subjugation, Ulfric and his handful of loyal Nords sure can't. Divide and conquer, as they say. The Nords are idealists, and that's fine... but they're being stupid and pigheaded and not really facing the truth. Things will never go back to the simple, isolated life they remember because the world has changed--now they need those allies more than ever before, if they're going to survive.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:03 pm

What I love about this storyline is the fact that it is not one of good vs evil. There is a level of nuance here that is exceptionally uncommon in videogames.

There are reasons for being for or against either side, both on a factual level as on an emotional one.

There is no right or wrong.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:45 pm

The Stormcloaks and the Empire both have their pros and cons, and are designed as such so that you as a player can have a vallid argument to join either side.

The Empire's rule was never questions before, only once the Emperor did something that the Nords didn't like did they rebel, this makes the Stormcloaks just a bunch of rebels. We should join the Empire! However the Empire basically surrendered to the Thalmor and Nords aren't free to live their lives according to their believes anymore. We should join the Stormcloaks! Than again, the Empire only did so because they otherwise would have lost the war and all of mankind would be enslaved, they did what they had to do to survive. If the Stormcloaks defeat them than humanity's last hope is lost. We should join the Empire! Etc etc.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:53 pm

What chance does Ulfric think he has, when the Thalmor march in and take Skyrim wholesale? He's playing his people, rousing their indignation over slights real and imagined, in an attempt to gain power for himself. And if he becomes king, then what? He has his crown, which might afford him some immunity, but his people are screwed. Realistically, the only protection Skyrim has as a free province is with the Empire--and if the Empire with all its resources barely avoided complete subjugation, Ulfric and his handful of loyal Nords sure can't. Divide and conquer, as they say. The Nords are idealists, and that's fine... but they're being stupid and pigheaded and not really facing the truth. Things will never go back to the simple, isolated life they remember because the world has changed--now they need those allies more than ever before, if they're going to survive.

The Thalmor aren't some godlike fighting force, they were kicked out of Hammerfell. Sure Hammerfell has the best warriors out there, but Hammerfell isn't part of the Empire anymore and could certainly help Skyrim. The Empire is weak and falling apart, keeping it together might make matters worse for Skyrim or increase the odds.

More importantly however, how would the Thalmor go about invading Skyrim? Send a large fleet, sail past Hammerfell, High Rock then Hammerfell again to land somewhere on the coast of Skyrim? The Nords would have entire armies at the ready for such a situation and it's not like a Thalmor army can march through land... So really, Ulfric does not present a hopeless cause. In fact should he choose not to take the fight to the Thalmor and not to help the Empire in the inevitable second great war he might just offer the Nord longer peace then anybody else.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:35 pm

Ulfric is an a**hole

Seconded. If it weren't for the fact that I dislike the Empire now for being lame the past 200 years, my Argonian character would totally spit on him.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:08 pm

I don't like either side, they both svck.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:03 am

Just because one individual from the Empire is nice, doesn't mean I should join the Empire. Likewise, just because one individual from the Stormcloak rebellion is a bit of a jerk, doesn't mean I shouldn't join the Stormcloaks. When it comes down to it, it's the cause and the effect on the whole of Skyrim that matters. Skyrim is the land of the Nords, and the Empire's presence threatens their way of life and their beliefs. Not only that, but the Empire is now just a puppet for the Thalmor, who aim to control and eventually destroy that which is not Thalmor. While the Stormcloaks may have a tendency to believe they are superior to other races, they are nowhere near as bad as the Thalmor, who believe the same. Not only that, but the Stormcloaks never make it clear that no other races are allowed to live in Skyrim. The Argonians and the Dunmer in Windhelm may be treated rather poorly compared to the Nords, but they're given the freedom to live there, nonetheless. Those who love Skyrim and support its independence are welcome, no matter who they are. Obviously, or your Argonian thief could never join the Stormcloak rebellion.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:37 am

Yeah there are dozens http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&search_in=forums

I recall a time just a couple of days ago where a flamer's post was removed.
This guy just reminded me of that.

No common courtesy around here...

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:01 pm

Jarl Skald of dawnstar's atrocious attitude pretty much has me supporting the empire all the way

Go pay him a visit sometime.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:58 am

A study of the history of Skyrim can give you an appreciation for the Stormcloak position. The Nord people originally settled Skyrim in peace with the Elves. However the Elves in a night of brutality murdered most of the Nord population in Skyrim.

It is kind of hard to trust other races when the first time you do it they attempt genocide on you.

Additionally I think his position is more political than racial. The Nord people conquered and settled Skyrim and make up the vast majority of it's population. Why then should a far away people be ruling it and making decisions for it?

As a character when I RP it is not a hard choice. The only person to befriend me in the intro was a Stormcloak. The Empire's representative basically said kill them all who cares. True one person in the Empire group voiced a different thought but he did not protest he said that's the way it is sorry.

Based on his response I got the impression this happened often enough that he was not truly surprised at the outcome.

Now in fairness Bethesda has done a great job of giving both sides good and bad traits so there is a reason to choose. For me the Nord way is the path I have chosen.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:22 pm

Why then should a far away people be ruling it and making decisions for it?

The imperials are descendants of the nords, the original men of Tamriel. As separate races they've diverged in interests, disposition, and philosophy only.

Skyrim was therefore a happy member of the empire since its inception, right up until the point that it was basically wrestled into submission by the Thalmor.

The Empire's representative basically said kill them all who cares. True one person in the Empire group voiced a different thought but he did not protest he said that's the way it is sorry.

Funny thing is, when I started the game I followed an imperial soldier into Helgen Keep. When we first spotted Stormcloaks in the entrance hall, rather than trying to ambush them we walked in without weapons drawn to converse peacefully with them. When we approached them, they attacked us completely unprovoked. That in combination with the racism in Windhelm nearly convinced me to join the empire against the Stormcloaks. It was only when I discovered how weak the empire was and how threatened the nordic way of life was that I joined the Stormcloaks.

Playing as an Argonian, I have to admit that it was a bit of a difficult decision at first. Both the nords and the imperials generally have no respect for my people or my way of life. But like I said, I ultimately couldn't turn down the offer to help the nords fight off the oppression of a dying empire.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:03 pm

This is the dialogue you first hear when you meet them, if you stop to listen. It gives a very good view of their position and attitude.
Tullius

Spoiler

Legate Rikke: Im telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun.
Tullius: He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men.
Legate Rikke: That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him.
Tullius: It's not a cause. It's a rebellion.
Legate Rikke: Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun.
Tullius: Jarl Balgruuf...
Legate Rikke: Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim.
Tullius: Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city.
Legate Rikke: General.
Tullius: You people and your damn Jarls.
Legate Rikke: Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for.
Tullius: If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea.
Legate Rikke: Yes, sir.
Tullius: You Nords and your bloody sense of honor.
Legate Rikke: Sir.

Ulfric

Spoiler

Galmar: Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer.
Ulfric: He's a true Nord. He'll come around.
Galmar: Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun.
Ulfric: And what would you have me do?
Galmar: If he's not with us, he's against us.
Ulfric: He knows that. They all know that.
Galmar: How long are you going to wait?
Ulfric: You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message.
Galmar: If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet.
Ulfric: Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, dont you think?
Galmar: So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?
Ulfric: Soon.
Galmar: I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg.
Ulfric: Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies.
Galmar: We're ready when you are.
Ulfric: Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not...
Galmar: The people are behind you.
Ulfric: Many I fear still need convincing.
Galmar: Then let them die with their false kings.
Ulfric: We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts.
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?
Ulfric: They have families to think of.
Galmar: How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families.
Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers
wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words
are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.
Galmar: Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:05 pm

This is the dialogue you first hear when you meet them, if you stop to listen. It gives a very good view of their position and attitude.

So we have...

"You nords and your crazy traditions.... whatever..."

versus...

"RAAAAUUURR WITH US OR AGAINST US!!!!"

News flash, Ulfric! Skyrim's not the only province chafing under the Thalmor boot!

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:27 am

Remember it wasn't the Empire that sent you to the block, it was that b**** of a captain who sent you there, even though you weren't on the list, and the Stormcloaks that crossed your path on the border of Skyrim got you put on the wagon. Hadvar wanted you to live, as you weren't on the list, meaning you were probably not with the rebels.

Hadvar also seems alot more friendly than Ralof when you consider how they speak. Ralof is kinda dismal and ready to accept death during the execution, which is kinda creepy, then he urges you to fight for a cause that got you put on the wagon in the first place.

Ulfric is a racist, but he only tolerates the presence of other races. Kinda like the white people in the Deep South (stereotype I know, but based on my sister's experience in college when she studied there as an educational policy lawyer [cause the schools down there are really f****ed up], totally true.)

Ulfric also kinda mirrors the Confederacy during the U.S. Civil War. The Stormcloak rebels wanna secede and they only want civil rights for the Nords.

You know I was trying not to make a direct reference...But I see you have done it for me. Yeah, I'm siding with the empire.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:36 pm

one real life parrell this reoccuring topic has, is that nobody goes to war thinking their the bad guy.