My bad Its hard to tell intentions over the internet sometimes.


What exactly are these supposed to prove?

Questioning if person had actually read any lore.

Saying things like:


Is like having never played morrowind.

Or claiming stormcloaks to be "chaotic good" of all things.

One question to be asked though, are the nature of kidnappings done in secret or public? Its like the darkbrotherhood running around and killing people.

I haven't started the Civil War quest line yet either, but I think I'm going to side with the Empire. Earlier in the game I had been quite sympathetic to the Stormcloaks cause, a notion catalysed by my dislike of the Thalmor. However, after visiting Windhelm's Grey Quarter, I changed my mind. Also, I think a united Empire has a better chance at defeating the Thalmor than a fractured Tamriel.

All I got from the Grey Quarter was a bunch of Dunmer who wanted Ulfric to fix their community rather than ban together and try and fix it themselves. I think people are just blowing this racism bit out of the water, and making it much more than it really is.


Ahh, well, the Empire does support legalized slavery in Morrowind though. They allowed the Dunmer to keep it, and they did nothing to really stop them from conducting raids into Argonia for more slaves.

Because of the treaty that allowed morrowind to remain largely autonomous; as per the deal between the empire and the tribunal. Its not like the empire conquered morrowind.a

There's also Brunwulf Free-Winter's anecdote on the lack of protection and inaction against crimes against non-nords.

Right, which is quite hypocritical for the Empire to claim to have 'banned' slavery yet allow the Eastern half to practice it. Might as well argue that the Empire had no right to 'give' Hammerfell to the Thalmor when the Raga gained the same rights during their rebellion.

The conclusions you're drawing do not seem particularly accurate to me. The Thalmor were not "kicked out" of Hammerfell, they simply couldn't afford to invest the troops necessary to beat the snot out of Hammerfell. If they had then they'd leave Valenwood and Elsweyr pretty open and they'd present a great shot for the Legion to circle around the main Thalmor invasion force, isolate it, and utterly destroy it. It would be Red Ring v2, and this time it probably would leave the Thalmor pretty low on troops. It could shift the entire balance and of course the Thalmor know better than that.

As for how the Thalmor would invade Skyrim, the answer is pretty simple. They'd take their sweet time and first take out the other countries of men. If Ulfric wins then the Empire is really just High Rock and Cyrodiil, and there'd be no land border between them since both Hammerfell and Skyrim are officially independent. Thus both High Rock and Cyrodiil would be hugely vulnerable. What this means is that the Thalmor would undoubtfully end up in a position to sack the crap out of Cyrodiil and once that's done, the Empire is gone. Then they'd move on to Hammerfell, then they'd take High Rock, and then finally they'd do a three-ponged land-based invasion of Skyrim. It might not happen within Ulfric's time, it might not happen within the next 100 years, but it would happen eventually. Time would be working for the Thalmor.

That being said, you're quite right that the Thalmor don't have a god-like army. In fact their army isn't hugely impressive in open combat and it's not huge either. It's simply large enough to get things done. Their real strength is in espionage, covert operations, and manipulating every fight to be on their terms or not at all. Take that away and they lose their potency. Let them play their divide and conquer games and they'll win. I shouldn't have to say that Skyrim alone obviously isn't stronger than Skyrim + High Rock + Cyrodiil. And once open war against the Thalmor breaks out again, I'm sure Hammerfell will come back into the Empire as well.

Valenwood is Thalmor territory but not because the Bosmer love the Thalmor. Most Bosmer are borderline pacifists and would rather surrender than fight an all out war, which is quite contrary of what the Thalmor believes in. The Bosmer don't care too much who claims to "own" their land as long as they get to live there in harmony with their trees and the forest isn't cut down. What you shouldn't forget is that the Thalmor are very brutal and have a certain fondness of purging their political opposition, which means a lot of Bosmer are brutally oppressed or executed. Fighting the Thalmor is not "treachery" to other Bosmer, it's merely not peaceful tree-hugging.

The same thing applies to Khajiits, by the way. Khajiit don't care about titles or rulers, they care about their home clan and about living how they want to live and using moonsugar and skooma as much as they want. They aren't loyal subjects as a race, even if a few might be overly religious and thus bow to the Thalmor on that
accord.

This is not exactly true. And Tulius says something that hints to this as well, even if his position prevents him from making any statements of open aggression against the Thalmor, since there's officially a peace treaty in effect. The Empire is by no means a puppet for the Thalmor. More accurately, there's a cold war going on but the Thalmor have all the trump cards currently, which means a direct confrontation would be unfortunate.

While the Legion could in theory destroy any army the Thalmor could put in front of it, the trouble lies in getting the Thalmor to actually fight a decisive battle. The Thalmor know their limitations just as well as the Empire does, which means they'd to Al Queda style terrorism and small hit and runs all over the place. And with control over both Elsweyr and Valenwood, there's a huge border from which they can stage their attacks. The Legion can fend off those attacks if it can make it in time, but going offensive against them involves invading both Elsweyr and Valenwood, and sweeping both provinces clean of all the Thalmor guerilia groups. That's not easy at all. Even then, the Thalmor home province would still be intact and unharmed while the Empire would be worn down.

Ulfric's approach seems to be "fight until you die and never surrender!!!" and while that's both brave and admireable, it's not always the most intelligent choice. Fighting makes sense when there's a victory condition to be achieved, but if no paths lead to the achievement of victory conditions then what exactly is the point of fighting? Consequently the Empire is swallowing its pride, licking the Thalmor boots, and waiting for a time when hurting those pointy-eared bastards is actually possible.

By the way, a man Ulfric would've benefitted a lot from knowing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

Please, do tell us, loremaster. Why is this against TES lore?

Because I said so!

There's the Tribunal; before their weakening and isolation without the heart, fighting them was uh.. unwise?

Renouncing a territory because they will not accept the conditions of the treaty is not the same as "giving" you know
Which is actually weird, skyrim didn't do the same thing as hammerfell and they might have succeded from the empire without Ulfric's silly rebellion.


Is this the part where we bring up the bear of markarth again ?

Because murdering a bunch of people because they're not on fighting on your side is totally chaotic good.

I think you give the Thalmor far more credit than they deserve my friend. The Thalmors success in the Great War was via shock and awe but once that ran out, they were turrned back. They no longer have the element of supprise nor do they have the manpower the human races can field. Honestly, I don't believe the Thalmor could defeat a unifed Hammerfell, when Tiber was only able to when they were embroiled in a civil war.



Remen effectivly fought the Tribunal to at least a stand still and his son was able to outwit them in battle. Had Tiber wanted to beat them, he could have I believe.

You know you basically said the exact same thing but then with different words right?

What I said:
The Thalmor rule in Valenwood. Going against that rule is to rebel against that rule. Your family and loved ones will suffer horrible consequences because of it.

I don't see me saying anywhere that the common Bosmer would consider it treason..

Wasn't Reman II killed in the war and his son assassinated by the morag tong?

Black Spider your plan would require everybody not currently being invaded to just wait and see what happens.I see no reason for the Nords not to send troops where ever the Thalmor pop up.Even Cyrodil.

An independant Skyrim can still ally with the remnants of the empire.Trade can continue Nord troops could still join the legion(the Thalmor may whine but eff em)
So I do not have the sense of doom and gloom if the Stormcloaks win.Quite the opposite in fact The Nords untethered by the treaty should cause much dampness in Thalmor robes just above the thighs.

Why would an independant skyrim ally with the empire that they said were corrupted and thalmor puppets?

"Hey, so you started a war, slowed our rebuilding, killed our troops and potentially gave reason for another war."
"YES!"
"Oh thats cool, lets be friends!"

No, I can't see a Stomcloak Skyrim aligning themselves with Cyrodiil. Relations between the nations would be icy at best, open warfare at worst.

Nords hate the Thalmor more than they hate the empire

On the first paragraph, I do agree that the Thalmor aren't impressive in an open battle, but they did beat the Blades in a game of spycraft and they did take Valenwood by crushing the Legion garrisoned there, which they did through superior mobility and superior intelligence. Strategically, since the Empire is still by fair their greatest opponent, it would not make sense for them to have thrown everything they had against Hammerfell, and so it makes sense that Hammerfell managed to grind things into a stalemate.

I don't think, if Skyrim pulled free after a long and exhausting civil war, that Cyrodiil would have the same luck. Once Cyrodiil is taken, Hammerfell is open from the coast AND from Cyrodiil. That's a lot of borderland to cover and don't think the Thalmor would have any concerns simply exterminating every Redguard they come upon, until the Redguards surrender. It would be slow going, but an isolated Hammerfell against the Thalmor? I don't think the Thalmor are god-like at all, but I do think they would win, since the Redguards would be no less stuck in permanent defense than the Empire currently is.

Regarding your last paragraph, just how large do you think the butcher's bill would be if you had to actually fight a war against immortal beings with god-like powers? You could beat them a couple of times but they do have home field advantage and while they'd be dormant from time to time, they'd never stop coming. Later, as Dagoth Ur grew stronger, it would've been a different situation but during Tiber's days, it really wouldn't have been cheap to conquer Morrowind.


Yeah, I figured that you weren't saying more than this, but I felt like stressing the point a bit. No offense meant.

Though about your family suffering the consequences of your actions, I do have to ask how exactly the Thalmor would know exactly where you're from and who your relatives are? Bosmer are native to Valenwood but they live all over Tamriel. The PC may not have been home in Valenwood for decades and given the purges, the family may already be strongly reduced in size.

The irony of other races thinking Skyrim should be for everyone is that each race has its own indigenous area and often is racist within its boundaries.

The Dark Elves complain in the Grey Quarter - yet they kept Argonian slaves, looked down on all non-Dark Elves and were highly resentful of outsiders - in fact, they were portrayed in Morrowind as much more xenophobic than the Nords come across as a whole.

The Empire is corrupt. Justice is only for when the Empire feels like it and lore shows that many Emperors have NOT brought about stability or peace but rather more bloodshed and corruption and problems. The case for an Empire instead of separate lands is highly overrated.

In fact Talos was a murderer and political opportunist - showing that most politicians (just like in the real world) are self-serving sociopaths.

The Stormcloaks are against secret police tactics, being told who they can/cannot worship (something that throughout real history is a good way to start a war, civil or otherwise when government tries to dictate this....) which is oppressive in the extreme, they are against having shed their blood for years and then, just like the Redguards, the Imperials throw them on the sacrificial altar of expedient politics to preserve THEIR status quo (b/c Morrowind, Skyrim and Redguard home (name is escaping me) are all in shambles anyway).

They realize that the Nords aren't protecting their way of life, they are protecting the Imperials way of life and supremacy.

Empire is usually a bad idea anyways.... smaller is usually more politically effective since people can police themselves and their police easier.

I am all for the Stormcloaks - they aren't perfect and have problems too but they at least have the moral high ground of the Empire throwing them to the wolves (Thalmor) and the example of the Redguards successfully standing up for themselves without the Empire's help (even though it swore to protect them)...... Besides is the Empire an idea or an institution?

If you lose all the governing ideas behind it - what is it really except a political machine that wants to survive at any cost for a few?

SKYRIM FOR THE NORDS! (and if my Breton doesn't like that he can always return to High Rock but he suspects the Nords mean it in a more general way right now and once the chaos has subsided will be more just and I definitely don't believe they want to ethnically cleanse!)

For now..
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bolund

And argonians and kahjiit are still aren't allowed inside windhelm.

I hate people who complain and moan "AH! ULFRIC IS RACIST, STORMCLOAKS ARE RACIST! THEY ARE EVILZ!!11!"

First off, look at how dunmer treated nords in morrowind...they have it comming. Second there are high elves in and around windhelm who are wealthy and respected citizens, why? Because they actually put in some work and earned it through hard work. While the rest of the Grey quarter just moans and complains that they arent spoon fed all they want. They have to earn the respect of the nords. Also no where does Ulfric say anything racist or anything showing he wants to kill all nords.

Plus, probably with the help of the redguards and hammerfall, a Independent skyrim can probably take on the Thalmor. What do Thalmor have? Wizards. Redguards and nords are some of the best fighters in Tamriel.

(P.S. Two racist civilians in one city doesnt mean the Stormcloak army/cause is racist.)

Do itttttt, the Empire has cookies.

Perhaps you're right, but I do not think that a successful Stormcloak rebellion would be good for Tamriel. It's classic divide and conquer tactics, with Skyrim and Hammerfell ingrained with a strong anti-Imperialist sentiment, the Aldmeri Dominion would be able to focus on the isolated Cyrodiil and High Rock. Better would be for the Stormcloak rebellion to be put down, and then perhaps starting a peaceful decolonisation in Skyrim and High Rock, but maintaining friendly relations with the two nations. Cyrodiil needs allies, for the good of mankind, whether that is by Imperial grasp or otherwise.

The Empire is enforcing the whole "Talos isn't a god" thing. The Empire is pretty much the Thalmor's [censored] so, I don't see how supporting the Empire would be opposing the Thalmor. Would the Thalmor urge you to help the Empire? No, but I don't think they really view it as an act of treason. Supporting the Storm Cloaks would be opposing the Thalmor because they're trying to rid Skyrim of Imperial rule so they can worship Talos like true Nords.