Hah!!! You and your bud Ceclife are the POSTER Boys for the Stormcloaks!!!

and another things, even mer/argonians don't trust mer/argonians, why should the nords?

lol didn't dark elfs slave nord's?

So? I actually listened to the game dialogue and read the background lore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEfftVsyk_c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPcD_S88BWs&feature=player_detailpage#t=3s

But yeah seriously. We actually talked to everyone we could in game about this stuff. Half the dunmer think the others need to get over their cultural superiority act.

Post a quote then. He never did what you say.

"i dunno about good, but my Ka Po Tun Khajiit tends to see the " badguys " as the ones that tried to chop off his head Bosmer's are scheming like the Dunmer (i like some bosmer tho ), as for the Altmer, eh buch of bootlicking milk drinkers that act like their [censored] don' stink and born with a 10Foot Dwemer Pole stuck up their arses."
So let me get this straight. Your ca... Khajiit is calling other people milk drinkers?

• http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345958-role-playing-stormcloaks-as-the-good-guys/#top
  
• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post§ion=post&do=reply_post&f=178&t=1345958&qpid=20285054
  
• http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post§ion=post&do=reply_post&f=178&t=1345958&qpid=20285054

Firstly... there are no tactics utilized on one side that are not utilized on the other.

Skyrim is in a world not at all related to the world we live in and the peoples are less educated and less "morally abject to death" than we are in our society.

In my world a war was waged on terror and in Skyrim a war was raged on the Forsworn in much the same manner... kill 'em all and let their Gods sort them out. There can be no reasoning with a group of individuals who revere hag ravens as great religious leaders and for whom there is no end to their cause until all others are removed from the land they claim as their own. It is with great malice and political agenda that Ulfric's part in this tale is told from the side and with the details it is told, most of my characters choose to disbelieve this as they do many of the things that the guards and townsfolks say to them.

All leaders of men take advantage of their places and of the situations and stations at their disposal. Ulfric is no different in this than the Emperor or any of the Jarls. It is definately to Ulfric's benefit that most of the Jarls placed under Imperial rule are so weak and slippery that they're easily manipulated to his means.

In answer to your question, all other references to habits and social differences that are abhorrent in our world and are simply commonplace in Skyrim... you play a stormcloak as the right side by believing that a corrupt Empire is an enemy of the people and that a charismatic leader of men with a clear vision of a future for Skyrim that includes control over her own destiny is the right choice. I've done it and done it very well.

I've also sided with the Empire and done that equally well.

here's how I see it:
Imperials = Evil
Stormcloaks = Evil, but a little less, they are racists tho which make them quite evil...

first of all imperials are invading skyrim, second they are about to execute you at the beginning of the game for no apparent reason, they don't even know who you are!!!
considering this, a good char should side with the stormcloaks, just my opinion

1. Quite subjective. You could also say that imperialism is a good thing when building up to battle the Aldmeri Dominion, and more countries should get involved.

2. Only in reliance with the White-Gold Concordat. They're playing the puppet, while the smarter thing for Ulfric to do is be patient and let them, and strike with them against the Thalmor at the right time. Of course he won't, because he's a puppet too.

3. They do. Neither side is a bunch of jolly good guys.

4. Easy way for Beth to show both sides are joinable and hateable.

5. Really? A bunch of guerrilla warfare nords have a better shot against the Thalmor than the legions of an empire? I don't think so, but we can probably both agree that if Ulfric wasn't in the Thalmor's pocket, both the Imperials and Nords would combine to give the Thalmor a run for their money.

6. It depends on what you say murder is. He was a young man, and Ulfric used his shout to knock him to the ground and drive his sword through his heart. Right out of Ulfric's mouth. Ulfric was a better warrior, and even give that advantage, he didn't play fair.

7. In their eyes, you're in league with Ulfric Stormcloak. Wrong time, wrong place. The legate there is a real [censored], but Hadvar is very understanding and mournful, offering to return your bones to your homeland.

8. I believe so, but that doesn't change much. The big thing is when they returned, they saw their country run by elves, which caused the uprising. Though, as we know, Ulfric is also controlled by the elves, so the entire war is a ploy by the Thalmor, controlling the leader of the Stormcloaks, to keep the Empire too weak to fight, and possibly intending to attack Cyrodiil.

Its the imperials that are the bad guys. Tullius actually hands a prisoner over to the Thalmor to be tortured, and then tells his people to just tell everyone the guy died and stop asking about him. See Imperial missive.

1. This could be easily resolved by a temporary alliance between the Stormcloaks and the Imperials. I could see Ulfric siding with Tullius to fight against the Elven invaders, maybe not side by side, but still against the same enemy. I mean, during WW2, the US was allied with the Russians even though they hated each other

2. The imperials are still supressing religion nonetheless, and the right time for Ulfric to strike could be decades, or even centuries from now.

5. Historically, guerella fighters have always been better at repealing invasions than large standing armies. Look at Vietnam, they had no air force, no navy, little in the way of artillery and non of their weapons were state of the art, yet they still defeated the US. Also, look at Hammerfell and the Alikr, they successfully defended themselves against the Thalmor all by themselves, yet the Imperials were almost wiped out by them. If the Redguards can defend against the Elves, why can't the Nords?

6. I consider using the Thuum a valid tactic in one on one fighting. Are you saying the Dovahkiin can't be an honorable fighter? Besides, Ulfric challenged the High king and he accepted

7. They still tried to kill an innocent man, having your remains taken to your home provence doesn't make up for that.

8. Ulfric is alledgedly being controlled by the elves, there is only one line of dialoug in the game to support this theory. Even if the war was a political ploy by the elves to disunify Skyrim, the Empire went along with it, and that's reason enough for Ulfric to fight that.

Incorrect on your assumptions of Vietnam... The reason we "lost" was not even close to what you claim... it was the political storm and public disapproval. History is a friend to all.

A better instance for your example would of been the Revolutionary War. The Colonists vs England. However, you must remember that in Guerella warfare it is a numbers game plus technology game. A line of infantry could lose to a few Guerella fighters, but if the line had support, the guerella fighters would eventual succumb to numbers. As far a technology, in Iraq, we are superior in technology standpoint... their Guerella warfare as been poor, even tho we did lose a good men and even a friend in the war.

And you are completely discounting that the Imperial's have to buy time. The Treaty was for that. You don't see active Imperial soldiers suppressing religion now do you. Think boy...

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting the lore, but it seems to me that the Imperials had just finished putting the Thalmor on the defensive when the Concordat was signed. If that's the case then the Thalmor seem to have more to gain from an interruption in hostilities. Especially when they are apparently given authority to freely subvert Imperial culture at their leisure.

If that is true... and I will look it up, than that is strange. But it could be as simple as an explanation that the Empire feel into political discourse, public disapproval, or a belief of peace over war? Resources depleting or cannot continue to support a long-term war

However, you didn't disapprove my statement nonetheless. It isn't the Imperials stopping the religious acts. If they took an active stance in stopping the Thalmor, then they would violate the Treaty and war would continue.... To buy time

There is the fact that Tullius hands a talos worshipper over to the thalmor to be tortured. And the "buying time" thing doesnt work when you have thalmor agents spying in your lands.

If the Imperials won't defend their citizens from persecution from a foreign belligerent, then it has absolutely no source of authority beyond what it can hold by force of arms.

The Empire is not defending citizens of Skryim from persecution. Therefore a growing number of them justifiably wonder what good Imperial "protection" actually is. Small wonder the Stormcloaks challenge Imperial "authority" in Skyrim.

Wasn't he also a supporter of the Stormcloaks? If that is true I will retract the argument. Actually I just will because I am sure there is an extreme Imperial agents take it upon themselves to do it. But they could also be Thalmor agents. And of course there are Thalmor agents spying in the lands... If you don't think that even friendly countries use spies on each other, it would be a foolish thought. And if you executed such agents... hostilities potentially would break out. Which I think the Imperials are trying to prevent

I won't deny or and am saying that the Imperials are not at fault per say... having a poor Emperor, trying to prevent a inner explosion of hostilities, and trying to stay neutral at best with Thalmor is putting the Imperials between a rock and hard place. Although morbid, I see it as, would you kill someone else to protect your family?

And once again, I am in full support of Stormcloaks, just wish Beth didn't place them as such racists....

I keep hearing this but seeing no evidence.

The Stormcloaks are the good guys. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law.

As for 'Nam, both of those reasons are why we didn't win as well as others. There is usually never one sole reason why a side wins or looses in war. And I don't know about Thalmor numbers, but Stormcloaks seem to have enough soldiers to fight against them, considering they use effective guerilla tacitcs. Also, in regards to the Iraq war, the thing is, we went in without a clear goal of victory, that's one of the reasons it took so long to get out.

Also, the Imperials may have not had much of a choice when it comes to the concordant, but it doesn't excuse thier actions. The imperials wanted to survive, so they compromised and gave up Hammerfell and in an indirect way, Skyrim.

Considering that the compromise with the Thalmor over the matter of Talos is going to cause the end of the entire world, it's pretty easy to justify the Stormcloaks as the side which is at least trying to fight them. Personally I say a pox on both their houses, but it's possible to justify either side. I find it a little easier to side with the side that doesn't try to cut my head off for no reason or oppress me religiously, but Ulfric is personally sort of a loser, so there's that.

Skyrim becomes ruled by their native Nords with a Stormcloak victory, and no longer occupied by a Thalmor puppet state. The Nords in the Imperial army will return to their homes in Skyrim. The rest of the Imperial army will return to their home in Cyrodiil. In the end Ulfric is going to be High King and will be another politician. Life will go on in Skyrim.

It is said that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, but he is uncooperative. An uncooperative asset is not an asset. Yet the Empire is also an asset for the Thalmor.

The Thalmor lost their major offensive power in the Imperial province. That's a far cry from putting them in a situation where the battered legions were in a position to attack the Thalmor and take the war to them. I don't know, it seems to me that in wars between Elves and Men a cessation of hostilities almost always helps men more than elves. Men can fill out their armies faster. It's pretty hard for me to judge the Empire harshly for how it prosecuted the late states of the war. They fought a desperate and brilliant final stint to achieve victory at Red Ring and retake the capital. To be honest I think the Thalmour, for all the genius of their intelligence and spycraft gambled (in my mind) more or less the entire game when they elected to take on the Empire in one go. This has ultimately been borne out as a mistake. They failed to achieve their goal, lost a major and difficult replace fighting force in a situation where the long term prospectus for the Empire is largely in the Empire's favor as far as resupply. I think they were in a situation where they lacked the firepower to continue the offensive war and so they went for the WGC, with the plan of trying to splinter the Empire and deny it recovery for round 2. Then in a move that was either pure genius or lucky incompetence the Empire lets Hammerfell go, allowing the province to continue it's own war, while the uneasy peace with Empire pins down much of the Thalmour's resources, leaving the Thalmour little to show for it's war except significant losses of it's front line armies that it had hoped to use to project power.

The civil war is a very, very important operation for the Thalmour, and their future success rides almost entirely on it. A swift and complete Imperial victory puts them in a real bind, as despite the long view of elves, the long game of gathering armies favors humans. I think the Empire got blind sided in the war, and it's far from great or benevolent, and it'll be a really long time before it can take out Sumurset, but the Thalmour have a serious problem if the Empire wins the war with the Stormcloaks. They HAVE to deny the collective armies of men recovery time or they will be in a very poor position indeed.

Has anyone read about the disposition of the Direnni in 4E201? No spoiler on it please, really just curious if I'll stumble upon it in the game at some point.

-Starcrunch