I'm a little shocked to see people use the word "blatant" to enforce an accusation that, to this point, has only been supported by the farthest stretches of the imagination.

Because "racist" is the last shock value "I win" button of irrational dialog. In modern society all one has to do is accuse another of racism in order to generate moral outrage. Doesn't matter if the charges are true or not, so long as the stigma is generated.

Furthermore, the fact that a secular publication would take a real world concept like "racism" and try to apply it to Skyrim strains credulity. In TES, races have a level of diversity and geographic concentration far beyond what we see on Earth. In hte modern world if you perceive a stereotype, you can easily be accused of racism. In Skyrim the races are crafted and presented as stereotypes.

Why does everyone assume Ulfric plans to take on the Thalmor alone, without seeking allies? Obviously you haven't listened to his discussions with Galmar or talked to him after the Battle for Solitude.

I disagree on the math, that a dissolving empire under weak and unsteady leadership will do any better than it did before against the Dominion. Even if Ulfric's rebellion fails, they're going to have a hard time raising legions from among the Nords with the Thalmor dragging people away in the night. People fighting for their homes, however, fight harder.

The cease fire is only a temporary halt so that the Dragonborn can deal with the dragon problem. And yes, Cyrodiil and Skyrim need to oppose the Dominion together. They can do so as free nations in alliance, if Cyrodiil gives up its claim to rule over the Nords.

Perhaps that's your problem. You didn't judge the situation accurately.

If you start to anolyze the Civil War, that's when the whole story starts to fall apart.


My first charachter was a Nord, then the story was just wishy-washy. That wasn't working out so well so I started a Breton. Now the story is just unbelieveable.

Brunwulf isn't a stormcloak. He's also not fighting a war that requires a large number of forces be ready for attack at any moment.



The dunmer weren't forced into windhelm when they arrived in Skyrim. They owed allegiance to no one. Were self-governed, payed no taxes, and got the right to worship whoever they please.

That's because no one is defending it. They're disputing whether it exists or is blatant. What comes out of Ulfric's own mouth that labels him a racist?

Also, you're conflating nativism with racism, and there IS a difference. Go tell a native American about how they feel about European settlement of their land, then call him a racist to his face. Let me know how that goes. And even if Ulfric WAS a racist, (which he is not), he's in a world full of other racists. The various elves are all convinced of their own superiority, and everyone pisses on the Khajiit and Argonians, so holding Nords to a different standard isn't exactly fair to begin with. So taking Nords to task for wanting their homeland to themselves is a lot more like calling the Scots bigots for wanting to repel Edward I of England than it is calling James Monroe a bigot for encouraging the founding of Liberia.

Look, nobody is claiming that Ulfric Stormcloak is the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln (who wasn't exactly politically correct himself, when you look at some of his statements). The people arguing on Ulfric's behalf are merely pointing out that a King defends his people, or he's no King at all.



He's the Emperor. Leading his people in war is no more than his duty. And just as important as winning the battles is negotiating a just peace. So when it came to bargain with the Thalmor after the Battle of the Red Ring, Titus Mede II had a choice: Accept an ultimatum that would shiver his realm into pieces, or continue fighting. Well, he chose the former, and the Skyrim and Hammerfell revolts are the direct result. You don't get to screw your subjects then act shocked when they're not interested in obeying your rule anymore.

How so? I think the set-up is quite good. The quests are too repetitive and there's not enough resolution or consequence, however.

Honestly, in pretty much all the TES games, you can make a good case for ANY faction (outside of TG or DB/Morag Tong) being the good guys. It just depends on how you set up your character, and how you role-play.

imho during the Oblivian crisis, which Summerset Isle also went through, it just doesn't seem possible for them to emerge a super power, able to take on the rest of the provinces, singlehandedly.

also I play a good guy... My play style is not an option in this game:(

I play "good" pretty much exclusively. It's not that big an issue.... though I don't do the MQ, or the civil war at all now (been there done that, tshirt's LONG gone, not replacing it....)

I don't do TG (I did on one toon just so I could have first hand experience - in order to be able to answer questions definitively). DB - I choose "kill them all and let their gods sort them". Otherwise, as long as it's bandit extermination and various local quests, I haven't had any issues with being "good".

Yep, I did up to "Diplomatic Immunity" found out that the MQ was going to pull me into the Civil war... and stoped playing the MQ.

When it comes to my character Darach, he'd never join the stormcloaks despite his nordic heritage for one simple reason, his mother told him stories about the Markarth Uprising, and the atrocities on both sides. For Darach, to join Ulfric would be condoning the slaughter of his relatives in the reach.

I have a really hard time doing politics in a game I play for escape from the real world. Others likely find that specious, but that's okay. Each to her own.

Ulfric is Jarl, therefore the buck stops with him.

In his city cat people have to stay outside the city gates. Dark elves have to live in a "grey " area. Lizard people have to stay in the docks.

You really can't defend that as being anything other than racism.

Segregation IS racist.

It blows my mind that this isn't self-evident.

Because that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. For one thing, all races in Tamriel mistrust and look down on the others, with good historical reasons aside from simple xenophobia. The Dunmer enslaved the Argonians for centuries and after Vvardenfell, the Argonians returned the favor by invading southern Morrowind on a slaughter run. That is the backdrop in which the Nords allowed Dunmer- their old enemies- to enter their territory en masse, take over land without asking any compensation or fealty in return, and agreed to let them live separately with their own governance and traditions. This is the wall of separation you see in Windhelm, not racism. The firebrands in the New Gnisis Corner Club like to paint it a different way, but even their own people express doubts about them.

The Khajiit caravans are not allowed into any of the Nord cities, because they trade in moon sugar which is the basis for skooma and thus illegal. This is true for Stormcloak and imperial areas. As for the Argonians, aside from the problems likely to arise from having Dunmer and Argonians living in close quarters in an already tense situation, Black Marsh is part of the Dominion now and keeping them outside the city could simply be to reduce the risk of spying. Altmer live in the upper quarters of Windhelm and own property, so if Ulfric is so racist, how do you explain that? He has his hands full with the war and is letting the status quo remain, running the risk of social problems at slow boil- but that is because the house is on fire.

Khajit are part of the Aldmeri dominion that is why they are not allowed in the cities.Stormcloak or Imperial.How do you think a Breton caravan would fare in the Sumerset Isles?Not to mention they are all "holding" as it were.

Argonians recently curbstomped the Dumner when they were down.The chances of hostilities between the two are fairly high.There are not enough guards available to maintain the peace if the situation blows up.If you think they are all kumbaya follow the dumner lady you met being harassed by the two nord racists to the docks and listen to what she thinks of Argonians.

Very succinctly dissected, Celan. Except that skooma is actually salable openly in Skyrim, and no one ever says anything about moon sugar to you. I had one toon who seemed to have an issue with skooma and Bersi in Riften, but after posting about it, I checked again the next time I loaded her - and no more problem. No one cares - you can sell it to any general goods merchant. I'm not sure it's really "illegal" at all.

There is a quest in Riften to take down a skooma operation.

Yes. But it's the only thing there is regarding that. I'm sorry, but Bersi IS in Riften and since that first toon (which was before patching at all, whether that might be any part of it....) I have never had any issues selling either skooma or moon sugar to him or any other general goods merchant in Skyrim.

So THAT was a quest/plot device, not a general world-order issue.

You can justify it however it gives you a warm and fuzzy but if you say "they" can't do that because of who they are (which is precisley what Ulfric is saying by the laws of the city which he has been Jarl of for decades) than you are prejudiced against those people. If those people are all of a single race, we call it racism.

@ Serethil: I'm not so sure about that. For one thing, you can't buy skooma anywhere, though you can buy moon sugar at alchemy shops. I'm inclined to think that being able to sell skooma is just a gameplay thing. There are skooma dealers on the roads who will attack you if you tell them "this sounds illegal," saying "I can't have you alerting the guards."

I have to ask- have you played a TES game before?

@Celan.... maybe.... I "expected" to find it the way it was in previous games - and it's not. *shrug*

@TophertheAssassin - you need to divorce your real-world issues and beliefs from this game. It is NOT a metaphor for your world or my world or anyone's world - as in where we live today.

If there were no Dumner or Altmer doing well in Windhelm you may have a point.You have allowed yourself to become predjudiced due to the actions of the two drunks in Windhelm and seem unwilling to accept any possibility other than racism.To each his own

nope. And you knew that. Because your point of view has game historical context and mine is looking at this singular situation. Because when dealing with matters of prejudice you must simplify it because it becomes easy to justify or excuse.

Bethesda knows this. These factors are in their games on purpose. For this conversation right here. Because two people are going to have a conversation just like this about Dark Elves in a fake city and later in life these two people are going to see racism for real and they are going to recognize it and label it bad.

Everytime two people talk about prejudicial behavior in any form the bigots are losing and equality is winning.

PLEASE do not make this into a real world thing. It's NOT. This game has nothing to do with real life. If you, in YOUR game, want to pretend to that, fine. But that attitude has no place in this forum....