Skyrim Criticism (Long, hopefully worth the read) : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:25 am

"The wrong choices?"

Choosing to level Smithing instead of Speechcraft is no where near the same thing as choosing to move your Rook into a position that clearly exposes your King, nor is it the same as going into a game like Final Fantasy and constantly attacking the Fire Demon, who absorbs Fire as Health, with Fire Spells. That's a "wrong choice." A "wrong choice" in the single player campaign of Mass Effect is shooting at the dead body in the background instead of shooting at the fully healthy Atlas standing right in front of you.

Choosing to level a mechanic given to us in the game should never be a "wrong choice," especially in a game set up like Skyrim, ever.

If I choose to level Smithing, or Stealth, or Alchemy, the game should be balanced according to what I can do. I should not be balancing myself in accordance to what the game can do. Because then I'm not the one in actual control. I'm not trying to overcome what the game throws at me, I'm making it so that the game has a better chance to overcome me.

And as far as Khajiits go... they don't allow traders in... yet they never stop to ask if I'm a trader, ever.

....WoW that was actually a very good argument about game balance. Very well done. Also, I just spoke to Ysolda, the one who tells you about khajiit. She acts like she's talking about ALL khajiit. She says many of them turn tk drug dealing and smuggling, and a few bad apples spoiled the BUNCH, implying that she's talking about all of them.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:04 pm

....WoW that was actually a very good argument about game balance. Very well done. Also, I just spoke to Ysolda, the one who tells you about khajiit. She acts like she's talking about ALL khajiit. She says many of them turn tk drug dealing and smuggling, and a few bad apples spoiled the BUNCH, implying that she's talking about all of them.

Quite literally, with how Skyrim's balancing and set up are currently, the roles of the player and the game are reversed.

Pick up any other game and play it on higher and lower difficulties. Enemies with have more armor, more health, do more damage, etc, and the player has to find a way to overcome that.

What happens when you limit yourself in Skyrim by saying "I'm only going to wear Leather Armor?" You just set yourself on Easy for the game to fight against.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:34 pm

It must be sickening to know that other people disagree with you, and that your opinion, however strongly held, still hasn't become a fact.

That's not what I was trying to say with my post, but whatever.

It is true though. It is your opinion. Skyrim is one of my favorite Elder Scrolls and I think it is one of the best games out there currently. That's my opinion on it.

I know it's true.
I also know that sky is blue, grass is green, sun is yellow, but I don't need that to be pointed out every damn second.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:49 am

"The wrong choices?"

Choosing to level Smithing instead of Speechcraft is no where near the same thing as choosing to move your Rook into a position that clearly exposes your King, nor is it the same as going into a game like Final Fantasy and constantly attacking the Fire Demon, who absorbs Fire as Health, with Fire Spells. That's a "wrong choice." A "wrong choice" in the single player campaign of Mass Effect is shooting at the dead body in the background instead of shooting at the fully healthy Atlas standing right in front of you.

Choosing to level a mechanic given to us in the game should never be a "wrong choice," especially in a game set up like Skyrim, ever.

If I choose to level Smithing, or Stealth, or Alchemy, the game should be balanced according to what I can do. I should not be balancing myself in accordance to what the game can do. Because then I'm not the one in actual control. I'm not trying to overcome what the game throws at me, I'm making it so that the game has a better chance to overcome me.

And as far as Khajiits go... they don't allow traders in... yet they never stop to ask if I'm a trader, ever.

You can level up Smithing and all that sorts but you don't have to use them. FYI: You can just choose to NEVER upgrade your gear thus making it stay at their original defense and attack. You can choose to NEVER enchant your gear even though you have 100 Enchanting. You can choose what to do to make your character powerful or weak! It is all choices! People make the wrong choose then complain about the game being too easy or too hard. Also, many games are like that! In every game I've played, I've figured out how to become overpowerly in them and unbalance the game. It is always possible to become overpowerly no matter what game it is. Only true way to balance a game is choose not to do certain things that makes you too strong. That is the only way.

As for the Khajiit thing, maybe because you aren't part of the group?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:53 pm

You can level up Smithing and all that sorts but you don't have to use them. FYI: You can just choose to NEVER upgrade your gear thus making it stay at their original defense and attack. You can choose to NEVER enchant your gear even though you have 100 Enchanting. You can choose what to do to make your character powerful or weak! It is all choices! People make the wrong choose then complain about the game being too easy or too hard. Also, many games are like that! In every game I've played, I've figured out how to become overpowerly in them and unbalance the game. It is always possible to become overpowerly no matter what game it is. Only true way to balance a game is choose not to do certain things that makes you too strong. That is the only way.

As for the Khajiit thing, maybe because you aren't part of the group?

I want to choose to use what the game offers me and still be challenged.

Why can't I have that choice? A properly balanced game gives us that choice.

And please, give me an example of other games that do what Skyrim does.

Again, your angle of thinking is making the game play us, not us play the game.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:24 pm

And people are finding Skyrim's single player, the only thing it has, not fun.

And other people, while acknowledging that various areas of the game could be improved, are still finding the game fun.

Just different strokes.

I'm one of those other people.

Doesn't mean I don't get tired of hearing the same comments repeated endlessly ... and sometimes inappropriately ... by NPCs in Skyrim (or Oblivion ... only two TES games I've played so far) or that the game is exactly what I would have built to suit my individual preferences ... if I had the skill, time and money to do so.

Just means that I'm enjoying what it has right now and am hopeful that some of the not so ideal aspects ... all of which I think have been brought to Bethesda's attention in numerous ... often rather redundant ... forum threads.

While my views may differ from the OP's in some respects, I do respect the constructive manner in which the OP expressed their views.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:21 pm

Its not a small minority that is happy with a reality-based setting, but a large, SMART fan base. If Bethesda was to make a completely fantastical absurd setting and environment then most of the Races wouldnt make much sense in the game. Crazy alien beings would make more sense that are more suited for this environment. Even in Morrowind, despit there being Mushroom towers and villages, there still was a good deal of 'normal' reality based villages. If all of Morrowind was mushrooms, then I'd probably lose alot of interest being that i like certain rpgs BECAUSE of their inspiration from mediaval/Tolkien like settings. Also, Skyrim has no shortage of interesting, beautiful locations...whether it be ruins, grottos, cities, etc. I think to myself 'smart, professional developers' when i come across such locations. Smart because they know how to add the right amount of exocticness without things becoming too absurd. Thats why im glad they dont listen much to certain rants from fans and just go about doing what they do best

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:47 am

And other people, while acknowledging that various areas of the game could be improved, are still finding the game fun.

Yes, and I've said that in previous posts.

Some people love it, like it, meh, dislike it, and hate it. How it goes.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:30 pm

I want to choose to use what the game offers me and still be challenged.

Why can't I have that choice? A properly balanced game gives us that choice.

And please, give me an example of other games that do what Skyrim does.

Again, your angle of thinking is making the game play us, not us play the game.

It's basicly cheating. I rarely make Overpowerly weapons and armor by using the normal potions and enchantments in the games and I'll still get killed by Dragons, Liches, and many other foes.

The overpowerly stuff people make are basicly cheating. If you make a weapon with a damage of like 250 or more then you are cheating. That high of a damage is far too powerful and makes things easier. Same thing with enchantments, when you combine enchantments so you can basicly resist all magic or have spells cost 0 magicka. I count that as cheating cause it is basicly exploiting. The majority of players, including myself, normally over-do smithing and all that by way too much that the game gets too easy.

Any game is like. Every single game has some form of cheat that makes it too easy and some 'cheats' are in form of rewards from achieving something. (Infinity Ammo is common reward if you beat the game 100%). You want an example? Halo's Skulls are form of cheating, though most of them makes the game harder, but some Skulls makes it easier.

So basicly, reason why Skyrim 'gets too easy' is because we, the players, over-use Smithing and Enchanting so much that we made it as so. If we cut back on that sort of stuff then the game will become harder. Only other way to make Skyrim harder is mod it and make the enemies even tougher.

So basicly, it is your choice. Do you choose to over use Enchanting and Smithing then make the game easier or don't over use it so the game is harder?

I still use Smithing and Enchanting myself but I keep my armor rating around 1,000 (Instead of max of over 2,000) and having a weapon that does at a max of 110 Damage (I don't go higher than that) Then my enchantments give me some defense against magic while helping out my spellcasting and picklocking. With that set-up, I still can die quite easily if I don't pay attention to my health and use healing magic in time.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:38 pm

It's basicly cheating. I rarely make Overpowerly weapons and armor by using the normal potions and enchantments in the games and I'll still get killed by Dragons, Liches, and many other foes.

The overpowerly stuff people make are basicly cheating. If you make a weapon with a damage of like 250 or more then you are cheating. That high of a damage is far too powerful and makes things easier. Same thing with enchantments, when you combine enchantments so you can basicly resist all magic or have spells cost 0 magicka. I count that as cheating cause it is basicly exploiting. The majority of players, including myself, normally over-do smithing and all that by way too much that the game gets too easy.

Any game is like. Every single game has some form of cheat that makes it too easy and some 'cheats' are in form of rewards from achieving something. (Infinity Ammo is common reward if you beat the game 100%). You want an example? Halo's Skulls are form of cheating, though most of them makes the game harder, but some Skulls makes it easier.

So basicly, reason why Skyrim 'gets too easy' is because we, the players, over-use Smithing and Enchanting so much that we made it as so. If we cut back on that sort of stuff then the game will become harder. Only other way to make Skyrim harder is mod it and make the enemies even tougher.

So basicly, it is your choice. Do you choose to over use Enchanting and Smithing then make the game easier or don't over use it so the game is harder?

I still use Smithing and Enchanting myself but I keep my armor rating around 1,000 (Instead of max of over 2,000) and having a weapon that does at a max of 110 Damage (I don't go higher than that) Then my enchantments give me some defense against magic while helping out my spellcasting and picklocking. With that set-up, I still can die quite easily if I don't pay attention to my health and use healing magic in time.

Thats the problem though: the fact that focusing on certain skill is basicallt cheating is exactly the problem.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 am

Thats the problem though: the fact that focusing on certain skill is basicallt cheating is exactly the problem.

You didn't read it all. I still use those skills but I don't over use them like most people do.

People will enchant their armor, make powerful fortify potions then drink and put it all on so they can upgrade weapons to have 200+ damage and armor to give over 2,000 rating in total. That is over using smithing. Same thing for enchantments.

Actually, I personally believe 150 is a bit too high myself.

~Edit~

This is one of those things you want to limit yourself on or you get unwanted results. Just like eating unless you want to be fat.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:28 pm

It's basicly cheating. I rarely make Overpowerly weapons and armor by using the normal potions and enchantments in the games and I'll still get killed by Dragons, Liches, and many other foes.

The overpowerly stuff people make are basicly cheating. If you make a weapon with a damage of like 250 or more then you are cheating. That high of a damage is far too powerful and makes things easier. Same thing with enchantments, when you combine enchantments so you can basicly resist all magic or have spells cost 0 magicka. I count that as cheating cause it is basicly exploiting. The majority of players, including myself, normally over-do smithing and all that by way too much that the game gets too easy.

Any game is like. Every single game has some form of cheat that makes it too easy and some 'cheats' are in form of rewards from achieving something. (Infinity Ammo is common reward if you beat the game 100%). You want an example? Halo's Skulls are form of cheating, though most of them makes the game harder, but some Skulls makes it easier.

So basicly, reason why Skyrim 'gets too easy' is because we, the players, over-use Smithing and Enchanting so much that we made it as so. If we cut back on that sort of stuff then the game will become harder. Only other way to make Skyrim harder is mod it and make the enemies even tougher.

So basicly, it is your choice. Do you choose to over use Enchanting and Smithing then make the game easier or don't over use it so the game is harder?

I still use Smithing and Enchanting myself but I keep my armor rating around 1,000 (Instead of max of over 2,000) and having a weapon that does at a max of 110 Damage (I don't go higher than that) Then my enchantments give me some defense against magic while helping out my spellcasting and picklocking. With that set-up, I still can die quite easily if I don't pay attention to my health and use healing magic in time.

Like Psycho said... you're saying that using a mechanic that the game gives us means we're cheating is the problem.

Here's a suggestion...

Give players the ability to enchant and smith their own gear... let us make a weapon that does 300 damage, or armor that negates 100% elemental damage.

Then balance the game for situations like that with this:

Some enemies get higher armor ratings, even extremely high armor ratings, or some can't be hurt by physical damage at all, or some have a natural aura around them that Dispels magic/enchantments, or some use ways to disarm you, etc. In lamen's terms, put in a counter to what the player can do.

You're telling us... literally telling us, that if we want to be challenged we aren't allowed to play in a way we want to.

I want to make a "God Killer Sword," but I still want to walk into the fight with said God and still have a challenge.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:12 am

Like Psycho said... you're saying that using a mechanic that the game gives us means we're cheating is the problem.

Here's a suggestion...

Give players the ability to enchant and smith their own gear... let us make a weapon that does 300 damage, or armor that negates 100% elemental damage.

Then balance the game for situations like that with this:

Some enemies get higher armor ratings, even extremely high armor ratings, or some can't be hurt by physical damage at all, or some have a natural aura around them that Dispels magic/enchantments, or some use ways to disarm you, etc. In lamen's terms, put in a counter to what the player can do.

You're telling us... literally telling us, that if we want to be challenged we aren't allowed to play in a way we want to.

I want to make a "God Killer Sword," but I still want to walk into the fight with said God and still have a challenge.

Now you are making no sense. If you want to be a God Killer then you basicly are impossible to kill and you will have like no challenge at all unless your foe IS a god of some sort.

You see, that is over doing it. You want challenges then you must limit yourself on how much power you have. You can't just make yourself have God-Like powers then expect everything to bring you a challenge... Seriously.... You have proven that yourself are a power-hungry person right there but at the same time, you like to have a challenge. That sort of mix never works well together. Trust me man, it wont work out unless you want to fight a Daedric Prince or a Divine or some other God-Like person. That is about the only true challenges you will get if you make yourself a God Killer Sword.

It's common sense, dude. Make yourself a God Killer and you will have no challenge except other Gods, or God Killers... Seriously.. Think on this for awhile... "I'm gonna make myself a God Killer Sword then expect Normal Everyday Bandits to be a Challenge for me!"

~Edit~

Btw, I'm telling you to limit yourself "IF" you want a Challenge. NOT telling you how to play it.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:24 am

"I'm gonna make myself a God Killer Sword then expect Normal Everyday Bandits to be a Challenge for me!"

Where did I say this is what I wanted? This is what I said:

Some enemies get higher armor ratings, even extremely high armor ratings, or some can't be hurt by physical damage at all, or some have a natural aura around them that Dispels magic/enchantments, or some use ways to disarm you, etc. In lamen's terms, put in a counter to what the player can do.

Which falls directly into line with this:

Make yourself a God Killer and you will have no challenge except other Gods, or God Killers

That's what we want as an option.

I want to make the "God Killer Sword." I expect to find "Gods" to try and kill. I know normal Bandits will die just by thinking about me, they aren't what I'm concerned about. I want to make my "God Killer Sword" and then meet up with a Dragon Priest and have it call me a "cute little dandy" and give me a challenge.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:41 am

Where did I say this is what I wanted? This is what I said:

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Bandits, and Draugrs, are the most common enemy you will see. Draugrs will be same way as well. They wont be a challenge for you either. And same with Dragon Priests.. They don't become God-Like things that will be challenges for you. No, they are just powerful Undead Mages that can be defeated if you are a tough adventurer, not a God Killer Sword.

Only thing in Skyrim that SHOULD become a challenge to you would be Alduin since he is the only thing in Skyrim is a God-Like. And maybe Paarthurnax but he isn't required to kill. All other dragons are just powerful creatures, not God-Like-Beings.

So basicly, your only challenge should be Alduin and Paarthurnax. Nothing else.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:17 pm

Bandits, and Draugrs, are the most common enemy you will see. Draugrs will be same way as well. They wont be a challenge for you either. And same with Dragon Priests.. They don't become God-Like things that will be challenges for you. No, they are just powerful Undead Mages that can be defeated if you are a tough adventurer, not a God Killer Sword.

Only thing in Skyrim that SHOULD become a challenge to you would be Alduin since he is the only thing in Skyrim is a God-Like. And maybe Paarthurnax but he isn't required to kill. All other dragons are just powerful creatures, not God-Like-Beings.

So basicly, your only challenge should be Alduin and Paarthurnax. Nothing else.

You do realize "God Like" is just a general term for "powerful" in this conversation, and not meaning actual "God Like" beings, or "Gods," right?

If I make an extremely powerful sword, I still want to face enemies, such as a Dragon Priest, or the highest level Bandit, or a Master Vampire, that can give me a challenge.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:55 am

You do realize "God Like" is just a general term for "powerful" in this conversation, and not meaning actual "God Like" beings, or "Gods," right?

If I make an extremely powerful sword, I still want to face enemies, such as a Dragon Priest, or the highest level Bandit, or a Master Vampire, that can give me a challenge.

I consider a Weapon doing a damage of 300 or more to be "God Like". You don't compare your special weapons compare to their original stat? Do you?

"Oh yeah! My Daedric Sword does damage of over 300! That is like almost 7 times the original damage! YEAH!"

Remember, your enemies don't have upgraded gear thus making them have their original damage. 7x the damage is quite God-Like if you ask me.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:01 pm

I consider a Weapon doing a damage of 300 or more to be "God Like". You don't compare your special weapons compare to their original stat? Do you?

"Oh yeah! My Daedric Sword does damage of over 300! That is like almost 7 times the original damage! YEAH!"

Remember, your enemies don't have upgraded gear thus making them have their original damage. 7x the damage is quite God-Like if you ask me.

That's part of the problem.

What we, or at least I, want is some enemies that can take 300 damage from one hit and dare us to try and hit them again. Or some enemies that would Disenchant our 300 damage sword so that it only does 50 damage, or Disarm us, etc.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:41 pm

That's part of the problem.

What we, or at least I, want is some enemies that can take 300 damage from one hit and dare us to try and hit them again. Or some enemies that would Disenchant our 300 damage sword so that it only does 50 damage, or Disarm us, etc.

You could always wait until I begin to mod Skyrim. I am planning to bring back Lucien, a God-Like Nemesis I made in Morrowind. If you truly want a powerful challenge then there ya go. Get Mods.

Otherwise, limit yourself.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:55 pm

You could always wait until I begin to mod Skyrim. I am planning to bring back Lucien, a God-Like Nemesis I made in Morrowind. If you truly want a powerful challenge then there ya go. Get Mods.

Otherwise, limit yourself.

"Get mods" doesn't help console players.

Not to mention "get mods" means you are correcting the mistakes of the developers.

Limit yourself should never be an option.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:28 pm

"Get mods" doesn't help console players.

Not to mention "get mods" means you are correcting the mistakes of the developers.

Limit yourself should never be an option.

"Get mods" was a joke, mind you. And limit yourself should always be an option. Limit yourself on how many beers you have. Limit yourself on how food you eat. Limit yourself on the time you play around with the kids. Limit yourself on how much $$$ you spend. Limit yourself on the hunting. And the list goes on. You really want me to keep going with that?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:20 am

"Get mods" was a joke, mind you. And limit yourself should always be an option. Limit yourself on how many beers you have. Limit yourself on how food you eat. Limit yourself on the time you play around with the kids. Limit yourself on how much $$$ you spend. Limit yourself on the hunting. And the list goes on. You really want me to keep going with that?

You're comparing real world vices and things that can harm your health... to gameplay. :facepalm:

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:42 am

You're comparing real world vices and things that can harm your health... to gameplay. :facepalm:

No. I'm talking about the actually gameplay.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:49 am

No. I'm talking about the actually gameplay.

Then why did you bring up alcohol, food, etc? That was completely irrelevant.

I bought the game, why do I have to limit myself to get a challenge? I want to play how I want and still be challenged.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:59 pm

Thats the problem though: the fact that focusing on certain skill is basicallt cheating is exactly the problem.

Indeed, and Skyrim is not their first game with that problem. Bethesda couldn't balance their way out of a wet paper bag. Or write themselves out of one either. But atleast they decorate it nicely