What I don't get is the idea that you're forced to follow the roads, other than missions where I was to follow an NPC I did not not use the roads AT ALL with my first character. I actually started using the roads more on later playthroughs for variations and role-playing purposes. Skyrim is supposed to be a country filled with mountains and rough terrain, I don't see any problems with that. Would like a better climbing system of course.

I love the scripted parts, makes the world feel real and alive, like something is actually going on. Never get the feeling that people are just waiting for me. Wish there were more fluid scripted interactions, like a quest starting the 10th or 30th time you enter a city for example. I do agree that you're sometimes just forced to begin a quest/forced into quest related situations such as Irilith following you around Dragonsreach with her sward drawn if you don't want to start the main quest but have other business there. That you can't choose to not bring up the dragon attacks, etc. should have been an option, and there really should have been more variation in regard to dialog/quest options, I'll agree 100% on that.

Of course I also agree that the guild questlines are ridiculously short and feel rather small, particularly the civil war questlines were rather poorly written. What is a bit sad is that the set-up behind the civil war and the mythology of skyrim itself is so amazingly rich - it's just that the questlines seems so rushed, unbelievable, in some cases pretty forced (like not being able to say I don't want to be a werewolf, can't I just continue on like a normal companion, I just got here, why do you even want me in this circle?") and almost always rather "small", it just doesn't have that epic feel.

Also, stuff like Astrid suggesting joying the Thieves Guild when I'm the leader and that's where she kidnapped me from seems odd. Same with Vilkas never having heard of the legendary Dragonborn aka the only Thane in Whiterun - aka Stormblade hero of the Stormcloak uprising ... But that's rather the opposite of linear, no?

Well I completely disagree with this, to me Oblivion was boring and repetitive after 2 weeks. Everything exactly the same, there is no variaty in landscape whatsoever. All the hills are the same, and whenever I want to cross something Oblivion was the annoying one where I couldn't do that because hills were so steep that I spent 15 minutes alone just trying to find a spot on the hill that will let me go up. Also the world looked ugly and horribly unrealistically vivid to me.

I do agree with the quests though. I hated the mainquest in Oblivion, but guilds were very well done and misc quests were mostly much more fun and better thought out. Guilds in Skyrim are just shamefully short.

Quests in Morrowind were hardly any better than those in Skyrim. A better example would be Fallout: New Vegas. Most of the quests are engaging and the PC is offered numerous ways to accomplish the task at hand.

Of course you're not "forced to do every quest" - but the game prompts you excessively and is clearly designed with the expectation you will. And really very few quests are anything other than totally on rails.


In many cases the game won't let you kill them without mods. Because it doesn't want to allow you fail quests.
And why else are they rooted to the same spot for all eternity? Why will that Markarth guy wait until the end of time in the shrine of Talos with, if memory serves, no option at any point to say "look mate, I don't care about what you're on about - please just do one and don't be sticking your quest in my journal clogging it up with all the other crap I have to scan through each time I'm trying to look at what I actually want to do." You go and talk to him or choose not to but, again if memory serves, there is simply no option to decline the quest from the outset, which is the case with a lot of quests. I don't recall there being any option with that quest to say "er no sorry, I don't care and won't be investigating this one."

It's just really shoddy writing. Bethesda seem unable to grasp the concept weaving together RPG narratives. Take New Vegas - which they published and tdid the QA for, so they know it intimately.

So one example - you have companions with real characters and stories. So
- You might encounter hidden valley and the BOS and have to do a task to get in with the option of following their questline
- You might enounter Veronica and take her as a companion and might trigger her quest (which isn't at all obvious, you're given no prior indication it exists and have to discover it for yourself and it can be missed) and be asked to go there with the option of doing her quest or ignoring i, which also opens up the BOS questline.
- You might choose to try to change their leadership or you might choose not to.
- Depending on who you support, you might be asked to kill them all, or you can choose to leave them alone or in one instance negotiate a settlement - contingent on whether you chose to change their leadership.

- One faction leads to a selection of quests and options all weaved together into an overall story involving them that can lead to some really tough choices depending on what you've chosen throughout the game. And whatever you do, the game leads you to consider Veronica. Since she's properly fleshed out and has an actual personailty, there's a good chance you're emotionally engaged - unlike Skyrim where everyone is made out of cardboard and all the companions are 2D pack mules you know nothing about (like who's Lydia? What's her story? I'd actually like to know and then I might care about her), with the sole exception of Cicero who is a 'love him or hate him' type tied the DB questline. Why Bethesda can't learn from and build on this far cleverer approach to narrative structure and emotional engagement they've been intimately involved with I really don't know. I'm dreading Fallout 4 because I love that franchise and Skyrim gives me dark forebodings about how badly written it's going to be.

Quests in Morrowind were far better than those in Skyrim and Oblivion, especially guilds, how many of them there were and how they worked. The example of the guy you quoted svcks badly though, because all you could do is destroying the Dark Brotherhood, you could not join them or work for them in any way of form whatsoever in a normal game. I love that game, it's my favorite TES game, but I don't like to see people glorifying it with false information.

That is fine and welll and like I said in my first paragraph I do agree that this is a bad development. I'm less vocal about it but I'm not against you on that.

However this topic is called 'Skyrim's game world is linear' which is just rediculous, as is the 'mountain' argument. Which is what I was responding to. Lets not confuse those two things.

Story content in Skyrim: more linear than ever before
The game world of Skyrim: just as freeroamable (the factthat you will run into trigger events at certain areas doesn't take away the fact that you're compleetly free walk to these areas, at your own leisure, by choosing of your own path, just like in the previous installments)

Dictionary.com defines linear as 'of, in, along, or relating to a line'. Nothing about Skyrim's world relates to a straight line - heck, even the roads are curved, as opposed to straight! In Skyrim, we're given the freedom to go where we want to go, do what we want to do and be who we want to be. Calling Skyrim linear is absolutely ridiculous, IMO.

I guess I'm playing a different game then. I don't have any issues with cutting across mountains to get to where I want to go.

Maybe the OP is complaining for the sake of complaining?

I do happen to disagree about the mountains. I personally think the environment is very well thought out and makes you properly explore. It's also a crafty way of making the map seem bigger by having winding mountain paths which I don't have a problem with. It's supposed to be a mountainous area and an open world should not mean you don't have to think about how to get anywhere. The very first time I played and was totally unfamiliar with the map I somehow got a bit confused trying to find the path up to Ivarstead coming from the Hilgrund's tomb direction, walked straight past it and got a bit lost. That, to me, is how it should be. It made me feel like I was really trying to find my way round an unfamiliar land with realistic terrain. It'd be crap if it was all one big open space where you can just run everywhere without any obstacles to negotiate.

I do think there are distinct issues about 'linearity' with the actual world and the content being separate. Yeah, it's the quest design that bugs me. I think the gameworld itself is awesome.

The number of quests in Morrowind is one of the reasons why I barely found them interesting. Too many of them were similarly structured. Either you are given a task to fetch something, assassinate someone or investigate an incident. Having an upwards of four-hundred quests with only a fraction of them deviating from the standard fare severely diminished the replay value and detracted from the overall gameplay experience. I would rather that they had included fewer but more interesting quests, each unique in its own manner.

Additionally, TES has been plagued by the lack of choices in quests. Seldom have I found a quest that allows me to approach the situation from a different perspective. Lack of non-linear and unbranching quests is also a reason why most side-quests feel dull. This is one of the shortfalls of TES and I hope it is rectified in the next iteration.

Yes, but this is where TES went downhill with choices even more with Oblivion and now Skyrim. In Morrowind joining guilds would make other guilds like you less, and you could never join all guilds with a single characters. That is a choice my friend. Now you could join the dark brotherhood or thieves guild- no one cares.

Mhh..interesting "philosophical" statement..it could be applied to a lot of similar stuff here and on the net probably

This is not a new argument, and it's ongoing right now on the D3 forums, too.

With D3 being released on Monday for installation/patching (and playing at midnight), there are/have been hundreds of threads discussing every little bit of D3 and comparing it to D2/LOD.

I'm still playing D2/LOD, although I play a mod, and will play it for hours later today. Although I was not part of the closed beta, I did participate in the open beta several weeks ago, and I liked D3 very much.

Now and then, I think of how D2/LOD worked - i.e., the inner workings of allocating skill points, etc., - but I already prefer D3 and the changes it has brought to the game, and could care less that I don't have to assign skill points. I just need to know that Int is the main skill for casters, strength for barbarians, etc. That way, if my sorc/wizard picks up a high dps sword with +5 Int, I know I will equip that till I find something better (damage for all characters - including casters - is tied to your weapon damage). I played a wizard during the beta and she finished with a rare sword (high dps) as her main weapon, and a shield that had +5 Int. Overall, from start to end (level 10), she changed weapons at least 8 times.

There's nothing wrong with comparing Skyrim to Oblivion and Morrowind. I did the same thing last November after release, just as I compared D2/LOD to D3. But you have to be able to eventually shrug your shoulders, accept the changes and move on/forward.

The inability of some players to do this leads to long threads, complaining about miniscule/major changes, and arguments that they lose because their mind is set on how the last game played, and if they can't have that, there's something wrong with the game. But companies can't just sell a new game, which then turns out to be a follow-on to the last game that was published 6-10 years ago, because players would feel cheated. And the $60.00 price tag for an "extension" would not be justified.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OP falls in this category, and there's nothing wrong with drawing comparisons between games, but things aren't going to change because 200 out of several million players keep posting their opinions. I'm just drawing comparisons between the two games, and the similarities they have in common in the threads players post in the respective forums.

E

i agree

And I can't fly an FA-18 unless I join the Navy and pass through a heap of (linear) hurdles. What's your point? That amulet is not required. You can play the game for hundreds of hours without it. You want it? You gotta do what it takes. Or you can wander around the province doing whatever suits your fancy while developing your character in any way you see fit, without undertaking any quest, Gauldur be damned.

It seems to me that the accusations of linearity here are all just moans about the inherent limitations of a game world, as opposed to the infinite variety of events and outcomes IRL. This gap will never be closed in a SP game. You need real human intelligences behind every character and every action to get what you want. MMOs at least offer that possibility. You may be happier in that playground.

Skyrim svcks because Bethesda listened to the 12 year old ADHD tards when making it.

BUt we WAnts dA wAreWulfz In SkiRim

Ok sure thing kids, have them after 2 fighters guild quests.

When you make an RPG for the mindset of someone who wants only to run around hacking things, with no thought for roleplay or immersion, and wants super loot after half an hour of play.. Skyrim is what you get. A soulless, poorly written action adventure.

I tried to have a discussion on this months ago and was mostly attacked by the skyrim defense force or (SDF) I completely agree that the game feels linear, I have started quite a few characters and every time I try to start playing I get this over whelming feeling of sameness it's like freaking Groundhogs Day in this game. I never really got this feeling in the other games at least not until years after.

Ahhh, Skyrim, the more I play other games the more I've forgotten you. I'm playing Mount & Blade: Warband, a little bit of LOTRO and Arma 2, and for the first time ever, a GTA game(gta 4) That game is incredibly detailed specially with mods.

I felt Skyrim to be shallow and the exploration factor uninspiring compare to previous TES games. I'm very looking forward to TES online though.

I truely pity you that's all you can get out of this game. I sincerely feel its alack in you not the game. This song gets really old after each and every TES game comes personally. I need to leave the forums again and just enjoy the TES games. Threads like this do make me think of the multple levels peopel are sop wrong abot these games and appreciate them more though.

Resorting to insulting a group of people that can't defend themselves... very classy


I wouldn't say the entire game is linear, far from it, in fact. I do agree that certain aspect are, however. The problem with threads like these is that people generalise in the OP, rather than specify. A bigger problem is that people have differing opinions and many cling to theirs stubbournly. If the OP had specified quests, I am willing to bet that the tone of this thread would be a lot easier.

Because you get a groundhog day sense from Skyrim, I'm guessing you don't RP.

The point with that quest is it's a generic quest that forces you to do something totally irrelevant to complete it on top of Beth also trying to force you into it by making it a prerequisite of the MQ. Rather than make the guilds are part of the gameworld the player can opt into, they attempt to railroad the player into joining them all - to, of course, become boss of them all incredibly quickly. So Bethesda simply assume you're going to want to join the college anyway because their entire design philosophy has become 'look! content! you want to be doing it whatever it is!' The game design simply does not support the idea different players may wish to approach the quest structure differently and have options to do so.
And it's another area New Vegas crucified them on - it didn't let you (and positively encourage you to) become Master Of The World - if Beth had made NV you'd have been running the BOS, followers of the Apocalypse and the Kings and been mayor of Goodsprings within a few hours. Why can't you, y'know, just be a member of a guild and have to do something seriously rigorous after their questline if you feel compelled to be basically High King oif Skyrim in all but name?

What 'inifinte variety of events and outcomes' exactly are you talking about here? The only 'infinte variety' I see lie in the random events in the gameworld due to randomly spawning critturs and random encounters - a feature implenented very lazily. Insofar as you get stuff like Imperial troops leading a prisoner straight towards, er, Windhelm. So I might randomly see the ubiquitous Talsgar fighting a bear or something (but he won't die anyway because he's one of the Legions Of The Immortal that populate Skyrim), but that's the sum of the 'infinite variety and outcomes' I'm going to get. I can't side with the Thalmor, I can't take on the Thieves Guild, I can't destroy the DB without first being an assassin, I can't be a non werewolf companion or do something interesting like choose whether to be one or support other members in challenging lycanthropy within the guild, I can't join the silver hand and take on the companions, I can murder whoever I like when I like and get away with scot free it if I've got the cash, I can walk round with two dremora and the totally pointless vigilants of stendarr won't bat an eyelid. It's a really fun game with wonderful artistic design but it is utterly shallow and superficial when it comes to storytelling.
I don't see any 'infinite variety and outcomes' regarding quests. I see tightly scripted endless repetition with a dearth of choice or consequences. To the best of my knowledge there's one reasonably challenging decision in the entire game - the kill dragon/don't kill dragon decision. You can try to spin it howevrer you want, but the blunt fact is outside the open world exploration aspect, the game is fundamentally on rails. It seriously diminshes replayability because you see the same scripted cutscenes over and over again, have the same NPCs pestering you over and over again and the quests are incredibly linear in nature and their outcomes don't mean anything anyway. You're not encouraged to think 'hang on, if I play this sort of character and do things that way this time, I'll have a diffrent experience' or 'if I do that, then that will affect this' The only different experience you're going to get is what level the creatures you encounter are scaled to. It doesn't even matter what race you play - everyone will still treat you the same way with only a few bits of unique dialogue here and there. They've gone for lowest common denominator - each player wants to be Master Of All Things, they need their hand holding and making them make choices that could affect their gaming experience is just too damn risky to contemplate. Making them think about their dialogue choices would, of course, be totally unthinkable. Dialogue is just boxes people click through, so we better make sure whatever you say will inevitably lead to identical results. On the odd occasion there's more than one thing to say anyway.
As I said before, Bethesda are not good writers to begin with and the way they're going just emphasies their weakest area even more. The game is fun to play, but as other people have pointed out many times over the last few months, Skyrim is not an RPG - it's an open world action game with RPG elements.

Actually I do try to RP but this ES game makes it harder then ever with all the NPC's having one (or less) paragraph of dialog that they repeat ad nauseum
add to the fact that they are constantly spouting those lines from ten feet away it breaks the illusion, add to the fact that you have so few options on how you undergo a quest it just makes it not worth the effort, I mean if bethesda is not going to put effort into the game world why should I.

Groundhog Day is better because despite it is the same day, you can change how things go except for one or two things. I would love it if Skyrim was like Groundhog Day.

Actually, that's exactly what I want.

Fast traveling ruined it all.