Exactly, an RPG doesn't necessarily need to have choices. It infinitely helps the game out but isn't completely necessary. Now there needs to be some development/progression, otherwise it's just an action adventure game with a story like Red Dead Redemption.

And there's plenty of development/progression in Skyrim.

I can kill Giants now.

My khajiit 2-hand+Archery berzerker cannot play the same way as my Imperial Sword+Board+resto "paladin".

There are plenty of RPGs without progression. An RPG requires character distinctions, not necessarily character growth.

Hehe, I almost added "criminal scum", but that would've been harsh. Alright. But people nowadays have the tendency to say certain things are outdated while they are not, maybe that's why I got a bit offended. Like RPGs "evolved" and dropped certain things. Evolve implies it gets better. If people still play Daggerfall, it's not because they have poor tastes, it's because the game offers them something newer game don't something which they like. And that's something here, for you, what makes RPGs better is immersion. While I do love a good immersive RPG, I might love just as much playing Chrono Trigger or FFVII. Those are video games after all, I don't need them to be ultra-realistic.

Otherwise I'm not that fond of random encounters. I preferred how it worked in the Chrono games or Earthbound.

I don't see how that could work considering the two last companions looked nothing like the two guys "sealing" Morokoi. In fact wasn't one of the last two companions female, the two people with the energy streams to Morokoi are both male.

Skyrim is an RPG, it's just not as much of one as previous TES games.

The truth is, stats and spreadsheets form the basis for RPGs. In order to play a role, you want that role to be as in-depth and fleshed out as possible. The more your character is defined in the game world via skills and attributes, the more they will reflect an actual person. This is where Skyrim fails to be less of an RPG than any of the previous games. There are clearly less stats and skills.

From what I understand, basic attributes are determined by race in Skyrim. This means everyone of the same race will have the same running speed, have the same intelligence, the same agility, etc. This IS streamlined and really creates a lack of definition and realism in any character. In previous TES games, you could actually make your character be an idiot (or a genius) using the attributes and skills system. In Skyrim, all you can do is imagine your character is smart, or fast, or anything else like that. That is NOT what an RPG is. Because in the end, the game isn't going to care what you imagine your character to be- as far as it's concerned you are equally as smart, as fast, as strong (exception being stamina & it's affect on encumbrance) as everybody else.

There's a difference between imagining your character is a good climber and actually having the game recognize and incorporate that into the game world, and this is where Skyrim ultimately fails the RPG aspect.

You people are the saddest, whiniest, losers I have ever scene in my life.

WHY would you hangout on forum all day just to complain about something?

You have serious issues. It IS extremely pathetic.

I'm glad their not aiming the game towards "fans" like you. You'll hate ANYTHING that's not a D&D clone, because you need go feel like you have your own special thing.

You ARE boring, crybaby, angry NERDS. And not the smart kind.

Honestly GET A LIFE and go away.

I'd love to play these CRPGs you claim have a great deal of choice. I've never found them. Bethesda has come the closest for me, not so much in the outcome of quests, but in the things I can do within the game surrounding the quests. Fallout 1+2 are the only rivals I can think of. New Vegas too.

No you couldn't: "Intelligence" didn't mean anything beyond Magicka Capacity. It didn't change you're character's cognitive powers... and a guy with 100 INT could just as easily rush headlong into an unwinnable fight Leeroy-jenkins style, while an INT-0 (due to INT damage) guy would be smart enough to walk around, or use terrain/scrolls/weapon selection to his advantage to triumph in such a situation.

The Fallout series, most Bioware games, most Obsidian games, Deus Ex, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, etc, etc. A significant majority of quests in these games offer multiple solutions. In TES, only a handful offer multiple solutions. That's generally considered a great deal of choice, but I can amend things to, "TES ought out offer a great deal more choice than it currently does," if it'd make you feel better. No reason to be all pedantic when it's perfectly clear what was meant.

It's a game that you play the role of a character, people role play. So that makes it a Role playing game, no?

Seriously??

It's a computer game. Computer game worlds never change. They're scripted worlds. What computer game did you ever play where you changed the world?

This game reacts just like I expect any other CRPG to react.

Pretend. Make believe. That's what RPGs... PnP and CRPG are all about. If you can't do that, then you will never find the RP in anything.

While that IS a bit harsh, I can honestly agree with you.

Hell, it's even more pathetic that THIS kinda thread is in the same forum section as the "show us your character" thread, which actually does what it's intended to. Topics like this are replied to, and then forgotten, within minutes.

I cannot find anything funnier than the "but we'll complain, then they'll change it" posters...

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura is probably the most versatile game I've ever seen, it's story line adapts to a surprising number of possibilities. You can even use necromancy to solve a series of murders by resurrecting one of the murder victims, it's seriously versatile and allows for a vastly different amount of possibilities, you can also kill literally EVERYBODY. There is no essential/unkillable NPCs, etc.

This. I might have talked as if I thought Skyrim wasn't an RPG at all, but I had to address something when thinking Bioware can still get away with it by calling Mass Effect 2 an RPG.

I need to play that. And that "versatility" is never going to happen if we keep voice acting or radiant AI.

Yes. Realistic expectations and unrealistic ones. Reasonable expectations and unrealistic ones. "You can't change the mechanics" comes under unrealistic and unreasonable for me.


For some people. There are plenty that lost the will to live (in game) because there are no stats.


So how many genre elements does something need to be of that genre?

And which are the "genre elements" that count? And if we look at a lot of older RPGs, including classics, would they have a sufficient number of RPG elements to still count?

Well ok, it walks like a duck. It sounds like a duck. It looks like a duck... but it doesn't seem to like the water, so I guess it isn't a duck.

Actually, it still likes the water... but it has a green head, brown body, and iridescent blue wings, instead of a full white body and Car Insurance sales pitch.

Except no one was calling for no changes, they were calling for different changes. If you were present for the million attribute/leveling/character development threads you'd be well aware of this. Some might still be around if you're interested in reading through, but I imagine most have been preened by now.

Overall I agree with you but there is a few things you have gotten wrong.

There is no such thing as Intelligence or agility that I can see in skyrim, tho this issue will be clearer when the construction set comes out. The only racial stats are Height and Weight, you then get racial bonuses which are more just resistances then anything else and one a day powers. All races start with 100/100/100 except altmer who start with 150 magicka. Height determines speed (except khajiit who have a speed bonus) and attack damage, weight determines defense against knock back/stun/knock down effects. Statistically wise there isn't really anything else that separates the races out all that much.

Not sure that Intelligence had any real effect noticeable effect in previous games, tho it did have some effects in Fallout 3 with extra speech options. Other games have made more of intelligence, for some it helps determine the amount of skill bonuses you can get at level-up (try neverwinter nights as one example), so you could have an intelligent character, but that didn't necessarily make you a great speaker either, in that way it was more versatile.

While I agree to this, a new thread should be made.

At least the people you are complaining about are presenting their arguments in a constructive manner and backing up why they think the way they do in an intelligent and (for the most part) non-insulting manner.

Unlike you with your post, which consists of nothing but complaining, insults, and pathetic generalizations that comes together as nothing more than a "I want attention" post.

It is you sir, that need to go away.

Oh how I love that game, truly a forgotten gem.

True, wasn't my best example. But intelligence had an affect on skills. A person with high intelligence could perform alchemy easier than a person with low intelligence. Which makes sense. Ultimately, total role definition is limited because this is a video game- as such, sometimes the outcome of a situation is not determined by how well a character is good at something, but how well the player is good at something. Such as walking.

That is one. A great one.

Not a lot of CRPGs followed in its footsteps however (or did the same before it).