Smithing perk tree is just plain stupid : V

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:32 am

It's one thing to whine about bugs, glitches. Skyrim is a huge project, and I never expected it to be perfect from day #1.

[snip]

What isn't acceptable is the way in every apparent respect the gamer isn't given any indication whatsoever that he can't proceed from the Light armor side of the Smithing skill tree to the Heavy armor side. The perks are in a loop and connected, with the highest requirement being Daedric, at the apex of the loop. It, for every intensive purpose, appears to be designed to allow someone to proceed through one skill set (light) to the other (heavy) or vice-versa. Of course, what I found out at level 45 after investing all those perks in one side of the tree and having none to spare, is that you need the entire tree just to get both Glass and Daedric legendary items.

How upsetting to light armor users who (inevitably) want legendary Daedric pieces.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:19 am

decisions, decisions

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:15 am

To traverse the tip of the mountain is not the same as to climb it. Taking steps downwards can be perilous should one not realize his situation and the situation he is in. Then he was awake and the world was his to mould as he saw fit. Armour was his to make and mold, not that he needed it, he was awake. He was the writer, the moulder, the conjurer, the fighter, the thief, the mage, the errand boy, but never the dreamer. For that duty was set for the other.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:42 am

When did the game ever suggest that you would be able to progress backwards down a skill tree?

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:26 pm

It's one thing to whine about bugs, glitches. Skyrim is a huge project, and I never expected it to be perfect from day #1.

It's one things to take the game in a watered-down direction, offering the gamer no choice in most situations, with every character inevitably playing nearly the same "role"

Those are choices the dev makes based on their audience and I wouldn't spend a minute to spite them for it, because the game for all it's combined attributes is very fun, despite being designed for an marketed towards people who twiddle their thumbs at five-year+old proprietary crap hardware.

What isn't acceptable is the way in every apparent respect the gamer isn't given any indication whatsoever that he can't proceed from the Light armor side of the Smithing skill tree to the Heavy armor side. The perks are in a loop and connected, with the highest requirement being Daedric, at the apex of the loop. It, for every intensive purpose, appears to be designed to allow someone to proceed through one skill set (light) to the other (heavy) or vice-versa. Of course, what I found out at level 45 after investing all those perks in one side of the tree and having none to spare, is that you need the entire tree just to get both Glass and Daedric legendary items.

What a punch in the dike to light armor users who (inevitably) want legendary Daedric pieces.

A good game design is one that doesnt allow you to have it all

:D

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:26 am

im sorry for your loss

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:22 pm

It's quite silly. I'm sure you could mod it out. Go ask the modding forums.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:51 am

Uh, you might wanna clean up the language at the end, just so people take what you are getting at seriously. Also, it's "for all intents and purposes", intensive is something entirely different.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:21 am

A good game design is one that doesnt allow you to have it all

:D

I would disagree, but that is besides the point anyway. The gripe here is that the game never told him he had to go the heavy armor route to get to deadric (sp?).

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:55 am

When did the game ever suggest that you would be able to progress backwards down a skill tree?

My having the two perks connected by a glowing line, duh. It also doesn't mention any other pre-requisite specifically. It says "requires 90 smithing" and I have 100 smithing and the neighboring perk, I should be able to unlock the perk. Show me any other perk that has a line leading to it that you can't connect for no apparent reason.

If this was their goal, there would not be a line there. Plain and simple. The perk tree does not follow the same rules all the other perk trees do, and do say it is anything other than blatantly broken is completely foolish.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:18 pm

Can't take the short cut, sorry!

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:28 pm

Uh, you might wanna clean up the language at the end, just so people take what you are getting at seriously. Also, it's "for all intents and purposes", intensive is something entirely different.

It's not my responsibility to manage the word filter, it is only my responsibility to not circumvent it. You guys are cute.

Also:

"of, pertaining to, or characterized by intensity: intensive questioning."

As in, when one intensely studies the smithing tree there is no indiciation of it's actual function.

It's broken, and you're in denial. When you're done worrying about my admittedly poor language choice, maybe you can show me how this is anything but broken.

Also, I agree with the "no shortcuts" statement, in which case there simply shouldn't be a line connecting the two perks. This is the design of the game, and that is completely acceptable, but the game does not indicate it's design correctly, hence, broken perk tree. How hard is this, really? You make a perk tree. You don't make a line where progression isn't allowed.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:34 am

Both paths lead to dragon armor, and that's why they look connected. They are not, though. The good news is that both paths do lead to dragon armor!

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:21 pm

My having the two perks connected by a glowing line, duh. It also doesn't mention any other pre-requisite specifically. It says "requires 90 smithing" and I have 100 smithing and the neighboring perk, I should be able to unlock the perk. If you think otherwise, you are an ignoramus. Show me any other perk that has a line leading to it that you can't connect for no apparent reason.

If this was their goal, there would not be a line there. Plain and simple. The perk tree does not follow the same rules all the other perk trees do, and do say it is anything other than blatantly broken is completely foolish.

Heavy armor also has lines that lead to the final perk that you can't backtrack through. So does enchanting, and probably a few other skills.

Glass weapons are almost as good as Daedric, and have the benefit of being lighter. It's not like this is ruining the game.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:09 pm

despite being designed for an marketed towards people who twiddle their thumbs at five-year+old proprietary crap hardware.

I like the way you snuck in your PC elitism there.

At any rate it should be painfully obvious that in order to get the best of a type of armor you must go through the worst OF THAT TYPE. If you cannot figure that out then you have no right to complain.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:08 am

I agree.
It was a pain for me to find that out too.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:34 am

I thought it was clear that because dragon is at the top, and daedric/glass being slightly below and the lines connecting dragon to daedric/glass slope down that you cannot go from glass to dragon to daedric or daedric to dragon to glass.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:17 am

Makes sense you should know how to work Ebony before Daedric.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Heavy armor also has lines that lead to the final perk that you can't backtrack through. So does enchanting, and probably a few other skills.

Glass weapons are almost as good as Daedric, and have the benefit of being lighter. It's not like this is ruining the game.

Fair enough! Still, the perk tree design is dubious as hell. You can't sit here and tell me that you're surprised, since the game gives absolutely no indication that perk trees have a force linear progression. All they needed to do was include "prerequisite: this" and the entire situation would have been resolved in a puff of ASCII.

@Chef Kronus, I'll see you at Counter Strike: Global Offensive. We'll see how well your little rubber nubs hold up in honest competition.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:01 pm

I would think investing all perks in light armor then to hop over to the strongest heavy armor would be broken. You want the top tier heavy armor, then invest in heavy armor. Seems fine to me.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:33 am

I also feel cheesed here. A heavy armor wearing character is at an advantage because he only needs the right side of the tree. I think this is a oversight and was not intentional. In order to get the best armor perks and weapons the heavy armored individual invests much less where simply having light armor requires you to do both sides just to be able to improve both your armor and weapons. This is one of the reasons the "perks" are grinding my nerves...

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:11 am

I actually think it's fair: a character wearing heavy armor is likely to be more dependent on his/her weapons & armor than a character in Light Armor, who will usually get a huge damage bonus from Sneak and isn't expecting to get hit much. So if the Heavy Armor side of the perk tree gets a slightly better perk set, then that's okay by me.

Honestly, I think most of us had the sense to wonder whether trees went around at the top. The Enchanting tree, for example ... could you nip around to improved Shock enchants and skip Fire & Frost? Logic said probably not, and that's how it turns out. It's obviously a design decision, not a mistake.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:21 am

All they needed to do was include "prerequisite: this" and the entire situation would have been resolved in a puff of ASCII.

I can agree with that, they really should explain a few things better about certain things in the game.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:07 am

So you complain that the game doesn't offer you as many choices as it might and then you complain because one choice you made has a consequence?

I've seen some stupid posts around here, but this is really something else...

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:11 am

Fair enough!

Oh, your entire argument was just destroyed.

@Chef Kronus, I'll see you at Counter Strike: Global Offensive. We'll see how well your little rubber nubs hold up in honest competition.

Sorry, I don't play Competitive shooters. But Ill see you on the streets of Monopoly and we'll see how well your thimble holds up!

Or better yet. If you want honest competition, we shall take shots:

Every time someone makes a thread complaining about some mundane aspect of Skyrim, take a shot
Every time a thread about Destruction being broken gets made, take 2 shots.
Every time someone types the word "broken" take 3 shots
Every time someone complains about being OP, drink the damn bottle.

Lets see who's left standing.