Sneak is up in the mid 50's and that's been huge. I have bonuses to dmg with 1hs and bows, a few perks in destruction to beef up my fire spells, a perk in heavy armor and maybe light. Also two in enchanting because being able to use soul gems to recharge items is a-mazing!

no alchemy for poisons? i am also thinking about putting points in enchanting... my main issue right now is if i should really put points in armor or rather in block cause when you block you dont take damage (and get the elemental protection)...could then still get the alteration perks for mage armor

hmm... I've played mage, and I haven't had any issues with taking down any npc's (except guards, but thats not important). A few lightning bolts in the face takes down a lot of enemies, and generally depletes any magic users mana. Switching to a staff, and using Ice Form generally seems to do the trick....

Magic is, in my opinion, a little underpowered. But, I do get the idea that magic isn't meant to be used as a sole attack method. I've been using either magic and shield (you can hold off enemies with the shield until your mana regenerates) or try magic and a sword/dagger. I do find magic good on enemies that are a higher level than me. Giants, for example. Means I don't have to get near enough to be attacked quite and it is faster than archery. There will probably be a patch soon though.

There is a difference between wanting an optimal build, and needing a viable one...

If a build isn't viable, then you just can't play it. Even if you really want to. (I've heard that most Mages get shredded at level 20+, but I'm only at like 18-19 on my Mage, so I haven't experienced that yet...)

Edit: For instance, if you just wanted to play a non-combat build (Speech/Lockpicking/etc etc) and be a Merchant kind of person, then you'd get your ass handed to you by everything. Dragons, bears, ice wolves, thieves, random encounters with Assassins/thugs, etc.

I haven't played a mage yet, but a pure warrior is almost impossible with the dragons

The big difference is that mages have the opportunity to use NPC's to their advantage. You can turn them against each other and stop them from attacking you, then reanimate dead ones to fight for you. Warriors go head first, Rogues and Assasins go around, Mages bend wills and manipulate life.

"Is it even worth playing if not warrior?" You gotta be kidding me.

Listen. If you want to be a munchkin and find the perfect min/max build, go ahead, but not every build is going to be that build. There will always be one build that is the maximum ultimate best. In other words, if your goal is to break the game, you can. If you want to hack it to pinpoint that perfect build and then play it, great. Enjoy yourself.

If you don't think magic is cool or fun because sometimes a fight may be somewhat difficult, then absolutely don't use magic. Obviously it is not for you.

Not everything in the game has to be for you, especially if you are a fringe player who prefers twinking and spreadsheets to deep, thoughtful play.

In Oblivion I used a ton of Alchemy, I really haven't gotten into it here but I know I will eventually though I doubt I will through many perks that way.

I'm currently playing a mage/archer hybrid and i'm loving it. i've only died a handful of times so far. i'm currently level 15 and i have like 5 perk points saved up that i havent used. i can kill just about anything by dropping a rune in front of me and then shooting them with a bow until they hit the rune. most enemies are dead before they get to the rune and the ones that dont i can either double nuke or nuke/heal until they are dead. maybe it will change at higher levels but i dont see a problem so far. mages arent supposed to run in and tank 10 guys, which is why i think a mage/sneak build is awesome.

Do you realise how difficult it is to create and balance a game like Skyrim, the people at Bethesda have created a masterpiece, give them some credit for what they have done.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615803-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/60951332

Late game mages are literally gods. Be sure to go down the page to see screenshots for the link that I posted.

I've been noticing this as well and if I have one complaint it's probably this. I'm playing as a rogue. I almost have to force myself to play that way because it's so much easier and makes much more logical sense to be a warrior. I'm passing on better armor that is warrior based. I'm forcing myself to stealth and use daggers when I could be using better weapons. I'm putting points into stamina I don't need when it would be much more logical to just increase health. I'm struggling finding areas where i can increase my lockpick skill. I'm putting points into skills that are very situational when it would be much easier to just increase my , health, damage and shield and heavy armor ratings.

I hope this isn't the case. I've been hoping it would balance itself. But this may be the biggest flaw in this game. It really wants me to be a warrior with some magical abilities.

It just seems liek the game was designed a certain way to be a certain character. A warrior with shouts and some magic. Maybe use a bow sometimes.

It wants you to be the character pictured on this forum.

Really? I haven't been putting anything into magic, or magika for that matter, just warrior skills, plus health and stamina. What would you suggest?

what do you need the stamina for as a rogue?

I don't really get this. I'm playing a rogueish character because I want to. I'm wearing a mix of heavy and light armors because I feel like it and I have pretty decent health/magic and starting stamina. I don't feel forced to make any decision or that I have to force myself. I actually put points into heavy armor because it works well that way. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Definitely agreeing with the OP.
I am using Master Destruction Spells, dual casting Wall of Fire and Fireball.. takes about 2 full Magicka bars to kill 1 guard on Expert difficulty. On Adept, 1 and 3/4.

This is getting annoying..
Guards and everything also do much more damage to mages..

I havn't gotten skyrim yet because i have exams coming up and i will just be distracted so i havnt played yet but it sounds like the mages are similar to oblivion , spells that cost half your mana , and very underpowered , being forced to put points into mana rather than health makes you so vulnerable , but putting them into both makes a middle ground of being crap , I really disliked the way it was impossible to play a mage on default difficulty , now don get me wrong , I lowered the difficulty so i could kill somethin without chuggin a mana potion and it was great fun but i felt limited as the good spells cost 3 times my max mana at the best of times and I rolled a mage class , took ages to level up any magic skill in comparison to melee , played a redgaurd and no one could stop me even on default , really imbalanced , now yes i know i am talking about oblivion , Im just saying it was really underpowered then and it sounds much the same now from what i have read , I honestly dont mind it being underpowered as you can adjust the difficulty at the start of the game and just play like you want , but I do hope they fix the issue of the 5 dam spell costing 10 mana and the 25 dam costing 150 scenario ( not actual numbers but you get the point ) , thats the only issue i see with mages apart from skills taking ages to level but i heard they changed that system yay ! and I totally agree about diff builds require diff tactics , commen sense but it does svck as a warrior or theif you can go in and rip people apart / sneak through a pirate ship unnoticed but as a mage your forced to give em a few slaps , run away and hide or drink potions like your an addict and then finish em off with the rest or your sizzlers and firecrackers that cost 1/10 of your mana

I see it the other way around.

Nerf melee and keep magic the same.

As a mostly pure "2h" level 23 warrior reporting in, and i get wrecked by equal or slightly higher level mage npcs. This is why your little test on guards is basically a huge troll post.

I just get the feeling it wants me to be the character pictured here. It seems like stealth, magic and bows are more meant to compliment a warrior.

Playing as a rogue is super fun. But it's just more difficult. I dont mind the challenge so im sticking with it but it takes effort. The game just doesn't seem to flow that way.

If you play the game enough you can basically max everything and become a godlike character. But it seems like it wants you to start off as a warrior first.

The first set of armor you get from the golden claw quest i'm not even using because i'm a rogue. But it's warrior armor and axe and shield. I basically had to sell it. I'm instead using crappy gear because I'm a rogue. That doesn't make logical sense.

Playing as a mage is a bit overpowered in the levels up to 10, but after that you do get the problem of running around without magicka and low on health, constantly consuming health potions. Regardless, it's a MAJOR improvement from Oblivion. I can actually be a pure mage in Skyrim.

I play a mage, and I'm kicking ass all over the place. The only build have I trouble with is a rogue/sneaking build, but a lot of people happen to be effective with that build. I think its a matter of playing what you're good at. Maybe you're just not a good mage.

I've had no issues so far up to level 25~. I've literally only used Destruction to kill enemies. I don't have Magicka issues at all or problems dropping enemies fast. I took out a Blood Dragon today in literally 10 seconds by chain casting dual Firebolts over and over.

you never list what spells you use there are dozens of different spells that can be used in different combinations for things did you use any of the armor spells? the fear spells? was your armor enchanted to up you magika so you dont go oom in the middle of a fight mages arent built to run in and fight everything its a more systematic approach like which spell will work on this guy the best does he have an resistances and if so what how can i work around them how can i amplify his weaknesses mages arent cut and dry attacking like a warrior they use mana which in all games is governed by intelligence so that tells ya it takes a little thinking to use them not just hack and slasf ive been playing straight mage since i started and the only thing i have some trouble with here and there are dragons but most with a shout or two and some cleaver hiding and surprise attacks they dont provide much trouble, i fall on my potions more than my sword and still nothing stops me, 7 alkir soldiers, me with dual flames, they didnt stand a chance, its all how you play but dont bash a class just cause you svck at it