I'm of the opinion that software piracy is mostly a myth. The industry claims to have statistics but outright refuses to provide those statistics for review.
That tells me all I need to know about that argument: it makes the publisher sound like they are engaged in a "good v evil" war, and that we should accept their draconian attempts to violate our natural rights as part of the collateral damage of that war. It is an appeal to emotion logical fallacy and you are eating it right up (like most people).

As a person who actually developed debate skills, studied logic, and practices argumentation, I can tell you right now that you are being fleeced by an argument that would be inadmissable in a real debate.

if it's like "Front Mission Evolved" then yes it's likely using a first gen Steam install

When DRM came out, it was supposed to be the saviour for the industry, to save them from them thar evil pirates, so not only did computer game companies take it up but dvd maker did as well and so did a few other companies, till dvd manufacturers found out that the DRM was actually stopping the disk being played at all on the highest percentage of players, so they removed the DRM because it was more of cost to work around for the makers of dvd players, DRM was far from perfect its own function caused more problems than it was worth.

Then Sony started the organisation of evil games manufacturers, who would subscribe to the great and glorious DRM, then the companies found out how much of a problem the DRM was because is was actually protecting the software so well it didnt function because of the DRM function, so blizzard told them to take a walk, and why shouldnt they, they dont need it they make enough money without making more money for Sony.

So then we get to program such as steam a justification to protect the rights, not control games, no not control, but to protect, one great feature probably the best is you need the internet to play, so it needs to be functioning and at a decent speed or you may have problems connecting, so if your an mmorpger and your isp decides were going do a 10 hour maintenance, well you cant play, oh but we have an offline mode, but for any reason how small you get disconnected you cant reconnect.

So far the application itself i havent found any redemming features, i have a chat program already been using it since late 90's, basically they spam you with adds for their latest cheap game they have for sale, and then download a patch you dont have a choice to turn off, the best ive had so far was a series of patches and updates that ended up being 10 gig, now all i wanted to do was play the game id play before all this rubbish had come out, i didnt want to upgrade, but no choice. no upgrade no play.

All this to stop piracy, well same games ive seen on steam ive seen pirated, so it seems i as though its working really well, other than to annoy people who want to buy a game that doesnt need a seperate application, just to get it to function. its a glorified online sales site, its apples itunes except for computer games, you can purchase and download and play with the same application.

DRM has been around at least since the 80's.

Various copy protection schemes were in circulation: one of the more popular seemed to be a requirement to enter the correct colour codes from a grid in the manual, which was a tricky one to circumvent as colour copiers were rare and expensive, and colour scanners and printers were unheard of in the consumer market.

One of the oddest was the dongle, an electronic contraption that could be plugged into a joystick port for example. I seem to recall from the one example I saw that it worked quite unreliably.

We have pro-piracy advocates here? That's strange, given that such leads to a ban from these forums ...

Given that, who the hell are you talking to?

Yup - concur 100%.

While I understand that there are torrents and other cracks out there. The majority of users (95% or more) are just not doing that.

I know some serious computer geeks who could do this kind of thing, but they are such a small minority.

I don't think it is for games like it is for compact discs and mp3s. As soon as there is even the slightest inconvience in a process like this most people are just not going to bother. Not saying that DRM is that incovenience either.

further - even if a game is pirated - those same pirates who could crack the game would never buy the game to begin with. Just like folks who burn and rip DVDs and CDs. They do it because they can not because they are saving money. If they couldn't - it is not as though they would be saving money to buy all the crap.

I don't think it's really the place to discuss about illegal file sharing. There could always be a debate on its statistics, its causes, its consequences, etc. But throwing a tantrum against those who don't pay their games and in fine don't use Steam is by definition out of topic. If the goal is to hide the problems of Steam in the name of the holy crusade against baby-eating pirates*, that's a very low move and should be condemned.

About the argument that Steam runs without problem in the background : it sounds like you're not listening to players who have problems. Steam running fine in the background becomes an awesome feature when it's the minimum we can ask from it.
There are technical problems with Steam that you can't deny. You can compare it to gamestopping DRMs to feel better, but there are still important problems with Steam at game launch. Obviously it modifies the process, causing protections against process modification (virus, keyloggers...) to freeze the launch. Also it means that it can alter the stability of the game itself. You could see the difference with the pre-patch executable. The simple modification from Steam caused a lot of issues, proof that Steam isn't a clean DRM (if that exists).

If you like Steam that's great, you don't see any problem. Cool. But you have problems with it while not necessarily appreciating what it adds, it looks like an unwanted sacrifice. I think nobody wants Steam user any sort of curse on their family or whatever... we just ask the choice not to use it. There's a moment you have to rely on the serial number as an identification to allow support on a product. If you want customers to use your application, give them incentives, not threats. And that's what's wrong with Steam for me. It's too aggressive. They take the monopoly by force and then throw their price policies at the face of the customers. That's not how business should work, even in a capitalistic world.
Just the "$ = €" conversion is insulting. They aren't the only ones to do that, but that doesn't justify it. And as they are suffocating retailers by forcing people to use their plateform to play, it's plainly dishonest.

I'm for the choice. You like pseudo-achievements, community things to share, easiness to buy and get your games, accessibility to your game from anywhere that has a decent internet connection? Perfect, use Steam. Just don't force me to use it when I don't want. I'd like that Steam would make efforts to convince me to use their plateform rather than imposing themselves, letting retailers with only console games to sell.

Small note, zhagsten - it's "copyright infrigement", not "counterfeit" (and of course not "theft" either, that's just silly). Counterfeit would happen if someone would make a wholly new game, make it look like Skyrim, then try to sell it as genuine Skyrim (note: this did happen with games in the past).

Ive have gone over and read some post of the steam forum. One thing I notice, not here per say but with many devote steam fans is that any other company that does what steam does to them is heresy, as long as its steam its ok.

So I bought Skyrim through Steam and found the service convenient. I came here to see what the fuss was about and after review, I've changed my position on the merits of Steam. Since I have the digital download version I expect certain hassles, but if I owned the disk, I would not be happy. Steam is more than DRM, it's a digital lock that cannot be broken by anyone who is under DMA type laws. Steam not only controls whether or not you can play the game, but controls the version that the player gets. Imagine if movies were like that. You buy the original 1977 theatrical release of Star Wars, but because of digital locks, you can only ever watch the re-re-re-remastered version. Isn't possible someone would like to play the Skyrim version they experienced sometime in the future for nostalgia, or for comparison purposes with the latest patch?

It may have been more forgiving if Steam was only required for updates, but by forcing it's installation out-of-the-box, it denies the consumer legitimate control of the purchased content. But thank you for making me aware of this. From now on, I will research any disk before I buy, to make sure Steam or the installation of any other digital locks is not required.

I hate steamworks myself, it always crashes on me.

I liked Fallout 3 with GFWL, I hope some more games will use it.

Can anyone who is working on the Unofficial Patch for Skyrim comment on if/how Steam is impacting their ability to provide their vital modding service?

GFWL was awful to deal with. I dont really understand it but apparently there was some sort of cheat prevention system that GFWL used that would cause things like Fallout Script Extender to be shut off when launched in a certain way. Their was a workaround, but without outside help I would not have figured it out. Another beef I had with GFWL was how it refused to link my Xbox account with my PC account. Oh and another thing....I bought Warhammer 40k II and its two xpacs about a week before my 18th birthday. The single player game required GFWL authentication, when I attempted to input the code that Steam gave me GFWL made me create an account. I began to create my account but low and behold I was unable to do so. Due to the fact that I was not 18, GFWL would not let me create and account without inputting all sorts of information from my parents. The whole process became muddled and I ended up just waiting the week till my 18th birthday( even then I had to wait a few days after for it to register on the service) but yeah that really turned me off.


Oh, just remembered another reason I hate GFWL........They mark-up games to ridiculous price levels, I'm talking on the same level as major retailers like Target,Walmart and Best Buy. A 2 year old game should not cost the same as the game did when it was new. I mean I saw Arkham Asylum up on their main page still costing 50 bucks.

They still use Dongles, and way back when, they would also use damage ~custom damage whether designed not easy to be copied, or even a physical hole punched at a precise location on the media.

Steam does allow the option to disable updates, and to install from the disc (if you have it). I do not know if it is possible to install without updating, but once installed, (AFAIK) you can lock it to the version you have.

In all other respects, I think we agree on every point about Steam.

The Creation Kit has yet to be released for Skyrim. So currently...not at all. Because they can't do anything with it at the moment.


You can install from the disk, but you must update to the latest version on the server afterwards. Doesn't matter what you tell it to do, it will update to the latest no matter what upon the install.

That's disappointing... I wonder if you can install from the disc, then disable internet access; duplicate the install folder, update as it demands, then disable updates, and swap out the game folders. Lot of work.

From my experience you must update before you are are allowed to play, & besides doing it your way Gizmo IMHO could make the game unstable if it works at all

Isn't circumnavigating digital locks just as bad as breaking them under DMA laws? If Bethesda & Steam go belly up, all those PC disks suddenly become useless. Anyone know if internet access is required to play the Xbox version?

Gizmo wasn't talking about circumventing the DRM, they were trying to prevent the automatic application of patches (which break the game, in many cases).

We'll be able to comment on that once the CK is out and the full impact of it being locked in to this horrible service is known.

Idk, but preventing "automatic application of patches" sounds like interfering with the digital lock which is Steam. We don't have DMA type laws yet in my country, though the government is the mist of bringing them in, it's hard to tell what's legal with such a system.

What effect could steam have on your ability to make an unofficial patch?

In theory: You can install a Steam game and disable updates, and that is your product; later when a patch comes out, Steam will not update your game until you choose to. So maintaining an outdated install is not 'breaking' anything.

Have you tried playing an outdated installed game with Steam set to Offline, and it refused? (I don't have any suitable games to test this.)

Patch as in altered exe? Aside from that, I don't think it will affect anything at all. FO:NV is wrapped in the same crud, and it works just fine AFAIK.

*Wait... Steam, or Steamworks? Off hand, I don't know if NV is Steamworks, I'll have to look it up.

That was my point , it was a rhetorical question it won't affect anything. We're getting a construction kit for skyrim just the same as oblivion and fallout, it's just arthmoor trying to slam steam again. He does it in such ways even as someone who doesn't like steam I can't take him seriously.