Unofficial SteamDRM Discussion

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 2:05 am

Due to threads about Steam/DRM in Bethesda games being scattered in many game sections across the forum which makes it very difficult to moderate and the number of problems in each one, we have decided to have one thread for the discussion for everyone to discuss various forms of DRM/Steam in one place.

At the present we have no information about what DRM future games being published by Bethesda will have. There has been no formal announcement about it so this thread is merely for expressing your thoughts on various possibilities and expressing your thoughts about Steam and/or other DRM options which may be used.

The following rules will apply to this thread as well as all forum rules already in place.

1. No flaming, attacking or demeaning one another for their opinion about Steam/DRM (pro or con)
2. Any encouragement of piracy will result in a warning and temporary suspension of your account. Admission of piracy will result in a ban. This includes circumventing DRM of any kind.
3. Repeated posts by the same member to say the same thing can be considered spam and result in a warning against your account.


Rage has been confirmed to use Steamworks.
For RAGE, we’ll be using Steamworks for activation. You’ll simply need to be online once (per PC you’re using) to activate the game. Once the game is activated via Steamworks, you can take Steam into offline mode.
Skyrim has been confirmed to use Steamworks.
I can confirm that Skyrim will be using Steamworks. We'll have more details soon.

Steam installation link: http://store.steampowered.com/about/

One of the frequent complaints about Steam is that it can't be played offline. We are providing a link for instructions to do so. If it will not work for you, please contact Steam to assist with the issue.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1224956-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__18502385

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1712878

https://support.steampowered.com/register.php

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17

What is Steam and SteamWorks?
Steam is a Digital Distribution (DD) and Digital Rights Management (DRM) platform used to distribute, update and play games online. Its main purpose is to allow players to buy games online and download them directly to their PCs with the Steam client, but it's also used by games distributed on physical media, such as DVD discs. Games that use Steamworks, which includes Steam-activated physical DVD discs, are activated online using the Steam client, and can't be launched without the Steam client running alongside the game. Thus the Steam client is required for both physical DVD and digital installations; it will be installed automatically for DVD installations from the disc, and there is no difference in the resulting install whether Skyrim is purchased online through Steam or on physical DVD. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28software%29 for more information.

Do I need Steam to run Skyrim on PC?
Yes. Skyrim is strictly tied to Steam for both physical retail DVD discs and online digital-only purchases. To play Skyrim, you launch the Steam client and then launch Skyrim from the Steam library, leaving the Steam client running in the background. Directly launching the Skyrim executable found in the Steam folder will also launch the Steam client, as Steam is hooked into the Skyrim executable.

Can I just run Skyrim without Steam running in the background?
No. The Steam client must be running to play Skyrim, and discussion on circumventing Steam by running Skyrim by any other means will not be allowed within these forums.

Do I need to be connected to the internet to activate Skyrim?
Yes. There is no such thing as offline activation.

Do I need to be connected to the internet to play Skyrim?
No. Steam is able to run in offline mode, meaning that you need to get online only once to activate Skyrim and install any required updates/patches, and don't need to be connected to the internet to play it. See https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555 for the official guide, and the last entry in this FAQ for more detailed instructions on how to set the Steam client to offline mode so that it can stay offline for a long time. The Steam client is often updated, and the offline mode is known to be still a little buggy nowadays, hence it is advisable follow the latter instructions to set the client in permanent offline mode once you have activated Skyrim if you need extended offline time, and regardless of any further Steam client updates.

I have preordered my physical DVD copy of Skyrim; how am I supposed to install it? Do I need to install the Steam client first?
No. What you're actually installing when you completely install Skyrim from the DVD is the Steam client itself (as long as you haven't installed Steam in your system yet), which will then automatically copy the required game files from the DVD to your hard drive. You'll be asked to enter your Steam account name and password to log onto Steam authentication servers, then setup will start. If you don't have a Steam account you'll be asked to register one before installing Skyrim. Note that some of the files may be pulled from the internet through the Steam client to complete the installation, rather than all being on the DVD.

I want to order the Collector's Edition of Skyrim, but I don't have an optical/DVD drive. Will I still be able to install it when it arrives?
Yes, as long as you have a broadband internet connection. You can activate the DVD key of any SteamWorks game, including Skyrim, in your Steam client and download and install it over the internet without ever needing the DVD at all.

I have purchased a copy of Skyrim through Direct2Drive, GamersGate or some other digital download portal, not a physical DVD version. Won't that be different from the Steam version? Will they be incompatible for modding?
No. There will be no difference nor incompatibility. Skyrim is exclusively on the Steam platform. These sites are selling Steam activation codes for Skyrim, similar to the SteamWorks DVD key. When you buy a code, you will activate it in your Steam client, which will then download and install Skyrim, just as if it was bought through Steam. So, there will be no difference from a version bought directly through Steam itself.

Where am I supposed to install Skyrim?
Any Steam game is always installed into the main Steam folder without prompting for install location. However, you may choose where to install the Steam client itself, which will determine the install location.

What if an update/patch comes out? May I just download the patch and install it, with the Steam client still set in offline mode?
No. There will be no manual updates or patches available for download anywhere; the only way to update Skyrim is to get online and let the Steam client download the updates for you. Then you will able to get back offline and play Skyrim as usual.

I'm on a slow/dial-up internet connection. Can I still activate Skyrim when I install from physical DVD disc? Will I be able to download required updates/patches?
Possibly. You will be able to activate Skyrim on a slow or dial-up connection. Steam activation data files are usually in the order of a few megabytes, so should only take a few minutes to download. However, at activation time it is required to install any required updates/patches.

Will I be able to play Skyrim as soon as it releases?
Yes. There will be more details on preloading Skyrim on Steam closer to release.

I have a question or concern about Steam, or DRM in general, that's not answered here.
Then you're encouraged to refer to the Unofficial Steam/DRM Discussion found in the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/forum/18-community-discussion/ forum or visit the http://store.steampowered.com/forums/.

Thanks to dAB for helping put together this FAQ

Please note the following forum rule prior to posting:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/724862-forum-rules-and-general-information/
10. P2P Content/Bittorrents/Cracks/Criminal discussion is not permitted within the forums.

Discussing or linking to P2P content within this forum is prohibited. Given the nature of these resources and their use with piracy, under no circumstances can they be linked to within our forums. Violations of these rules will result in a warning or account suspension.

Bittorrent links and discussion are prohibited within our forums, with exception to use of bittorrent links relating to modded content (from clean torrents). Violations relating to bittorrent content will result in a warning/suspension. Similarly, we do not allow discussion methods of circumventing the Steam check or of Cracks that violate the terms of a game's EULA. Open admission to pirating copyrighted materials will result in an account ban.

Discussion of emulators/ emulation is also prohibited on this forum.

Similarly, posts admitting to drug use, violence, or other illegal activities are not tolerated within the forums. This includes indicating knowledge of or being witness to unreported illegal activities. Such knowledge should be reported to the authorities not posted on a forum.
For the purpose of this forum, EULAs are legally binding. Discussion of breaking it, avoiding it or cracking the game will result in a warning or ban of your account.


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1241932-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1242900-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1243801-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1245427-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1246658-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1248407-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1249436-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1251957-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1253988-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1258551-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
User avatar
Jade Muggeridge
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 7:49 pm

ok think is time the moderators start contacting the devs to weigh in on this subject.
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:52 pm

I was reading thread 24 with great interest when I started wondering when, where and how Steam acquired all of the rights to Skyrim. Did Valve buy Bethesda so they could dictate what goes into patches or is steam's exclusive contract so iron clad that Bethesda is scared of them? Does Bethesda still retain any rights as a developer or do they even own Skyrim anymore? Please enlighten me, it seems like I have missed something somewhere. It seems like Bethesda's in house publishing arm should have some say in all of this mess .
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*Chloe*
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:22 pm

It seems like Bethesda's in house publishing arm should have some say in all of this mess .
Umm, it was their choice in the first place. Bethesda is responsible for their own patches, Steam is the distribution platform.
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Kevin S
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 5:51 am

Umm, it was their choice in the first place. Bethesda is responsible for their own patches, Steam is the distribution platform.
What did i do with my money when i couldn't buy games because they were on Steam or required internet activations. I started spending my money on the small devs who don't use DRM and don't treat you like a pirate. I supported devs like Matrix games. So if you want to spend your money on something else support the small devs. If people vote with there wallet perhaps the devs like Bethseda will start to listen. What really annoys me is that no one from Bethseda ever bothers to come onto these forums and explain the issues.
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MR.BIGG
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 8:09 am

Because of your idiotic methods to try to prevent piracy with DRM..you have now lost a loyal customer. I won't purchase another Bethesda game or anything related (Zenimax) again. I am very disappointed..not that they care.
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Chris Duncan
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:07 am

Because of your idiotic methods to try to prevent piracy with DRM..you have now lost a loyal customer. I won't purchase another Bethesda game or anything related (Zenimax) again. I am very disappointed..not that they care.
I must point out though it isn't just about piracy why devs use Steam. And i know for a fact as well as everyone else here that Steam games doesn't prevent piracy and it wont matter what measures they put in place they will never stop it. Perhaps if they had no DRM the piracy wouldn't be a big problem because you wouldn't have any challengers for the hackers. Thats what it is about with the hackers it is a challenge for them to break the game. And if you look at what UBI did when they made gamers play single player games over the net and UBI thought this was full proof but it wasn't and the hackers broke the games. Then you have to look at how much money they put in for these anti piracy measures that don't work the money would be better spent on game development.
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jessica sonny
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 7:57 pm

I must point out though it isn't just about piracy why devs use Steam. And i know for a fact as well as everyone else here that Steam games doesn't prevent piracy and it wont matter what measures they put in place they will never stop it. Perhaps if they had no DRM the piracy wouldn't be a big problem because you wouldn't have any challengers for the hackers. Thats what it is about with the hackers it is a challenge for them to break the game. And if you look at what UBI did when they made gamers play single player games over the net and UBI thought this was full proof but it wasn't and the hackers broke the games. Then you have to look at how much money they put in for these anti piracy measures that don't work the money would be better spent on game development.

This link agrees with you.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/07/opinion-ubisoft-piracy-and-the-death-of-reason/

90% drop in PC sales and no corresponding lift in console sales.......ouch.

Back on topic though because talking about piracy will get this thread shutdown so can we avoid it please.
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:46 am

Good, but short article.

The more laws you make the more criminals you get. By going down the road of assuming that any loss of sales is pirate related developers can blind themselves to other factors - including who wants to buy at full price a bad console port? Who wants intrusive DRM. etc.

Valve is really working these companies over. They offer exclusive deals to them then I bet after the initial release most of the 'product' later moves during one of their sales than by incidental purchases.

And all the while the only measure they have as to whether piracy is successful is measuring projected sales figures. They don't really have any way of measuring the extent of it.
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FITTAS
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 7:51 pm

Dev's don't put in DRM just for anti-P2P measures. In fact it's not even the biggest reason. They only say that so it makes them look like they are protecting themselves from evil pirates who gun people down on ships.

The big reason for DRM is to control the flow of money. In short, to prevent re-selling of their games. Did you buy Duke Nukem Forever and wanted to sell it because it was a crap game? Can't do that, because it's tied to your Steam/DRM account.
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IsAiah AkA figgy
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:26 pm

I was reading thread 24 with great interest when I started wondering when, where and how Steam acquired all of the rights to Skyrim. Did Valve buy Bethesda so they could dictate what goes into patches or is steam's exclusive contract so iron clad that Bethesda is scared of them? Does Bethesda still retain any rights as a developer or do they even own Skyrim anymore? Please enlighten me, it seems like I have missed something somewhere. It seems like Bethesda's in house publishing arm should have some say in all of this mess .
You missed nothing. Steam offers a couple of features for developers. If the developers want to use them or not is their own decision.
So when Bethesda modifies the Skyrim.exe or change the DRM or whatever else, it is their own decision.
Steam just offers different models and methods, but they do not force developers to use them.

So to sum it up:
Steam is a service, the customer (e.g. Bethesda) decides what to use and pays for that.
If you're unhappy about some restrictions (or so) than you have to blame Bethesda and not Steam/Valve.
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Kelly John
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 10:22 pm

After doing more research, I've determined that Steam's use and distribution of user information is defined in their http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/, especially Section 7. USER GENERATED DATA, and their http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html. There is no reference to "Offline Mode" in these documents, so apparently that doesn't lessen the pain.

You would need to be a lawyer to determine exactly what "usage data" is, which you must agree to allow them to "use, reproduce, ... distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display" without your knowledge or consent. Would someone please explain to me what this has to do with DRM?

After reading through that, it looks like they want you to believe they can use only what you provide by using the software (presumably when you sign up) and whatever you do on Valve's site (screen names, forum posts, etc.).

What really bothers me about that section is the part that says "may include, but is not limited to". Okay, how about telling us everything that's included so we can actually make an informed decision? Not defining/elaborating on "but is not limited to" basically gives them free reign to collect whatever they feel like collecting from your computer. Family Photos? Valve's. Financial records? Valve's. Passwords? Valve's. Personal documents that you don't trust anybody (including your family) with? Valve's. That porm collection you thought you deleted? Valve's. Patient information (for those in the medical fields)? Valve's.

What's even worse than them not telling you precisely what the collect is this bit:
you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.
In other words, they can take what they want from your computer, when they want to and do whatever they want with it. This has nothing to do with DRM, yet I have to agree to it in order to play Skyrim on PC? That is not going to happen. Bethesda has now permanently lost me as a customer. On top of that, I'm seriously considering taking down every mod I've released so that I won't be supporting a company that screws over its customers like this. Forcing us to install spyware in order to play their game is inexcusable.

The big reason for DRM is to control the flow of money.
And yet, it seems to have the exact opposite effect. I did some checking on the Nexus forums and found that around 130 people (so far) have been banned for pirating Fallout: New Vegas. In contrast, I could find less than 50 that were banned for pirating Fallout 3. Not only that, but those who have been banned for pirating Skyrim will most likely exceed those baned for pirating Oblivion by the end of the year. It seems that requiring users to install spyware in order to play a game is actually encouraging piracy.
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Horse gal smithe
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 12:07 am

You missed nothing. Steam offers a couple of features for developers. If the developers want to use them or not is their own decision.
So when Bethesda modifies the Skyrim.exe or change the DRM or whatever else, it is their own decision.
Steam just offers different models and methods, but they do not force developers to use them.

So to sum it up:
Steam is a service, the customer (e.g. Bethesda) decides what to use and pays for that.
If you're unhappy about some restrictions (or so) than you have to blame Bethesda and not Steam/Valve.

^^ This is the truth and why people came to these forums. Regardless of my opinion as to steams service and its user community, steamworking the game is all bethesda and what the threads were about when it was announced. The recent exe change would have come from bethesda as well but who knows what pressures were there but it was probably beths legal team.
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Ludivine Dupuy
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:40 pm

As a long time fan and player of the Elderscrolls series of games, I am deeply saddened that Bethesda decided to use DRM protection thru Steam as a method to act against piracy. I myself usually purchase multiple copies of each Bethesda game out of pure dedication and love for the quality of the product. NO MORE!!! I am furious with the idea that I no longer have FULL CONTROL over something I purchased. The idea that an update can be pushed to my game without my consent resulting in breaking my games executable is UNACCEPTABLE! It's actions like these that actually motivate consumers to engage in piracy. Any time we as consumers feel cheated or ripped off, it makes us think twice about paying for something again. I will NEVER buy a Bethesda product again unless Bethesda provides a local install version of their game. LONG LIVE LOCAL PC GAMING!!!!

DOWN WITH THE CLOUD!!!!!!
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Richard Thompson
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:50 pm

I'm pretty disappointed as well. I was incredibly excited for TESV, but my Steam experience has changed that. Now I'm not excited for TES or Bethesda anything. You have soured the relationship. If not killed outright, my interest in Skyrim (which I already purchased and played) has been at least decimated by my Steam experience so far. My interest in ever buying another Bethesda game has suffered more intensely.

Developers, it makes little sense to take this Steamy Big Dump on your five-ish years of work on a game and on your fans and customers. What was wrong with the "simple disk check" you promoted for Morrowind and Oblivion? There are few DRMs more draconian or more punishing for the user than your use of Steamworks. :spotted owl: hole move, guys. It is no credit to Steam to be able to say, "well Ubisoft's DRM is even more strict." Ubisoft's DRM is Dagoth Ur in a Blue Dress. You should have stayed with the method of which you could say "everything else is more strict."

You may have my $60 from Skyrim, and hundreds more from my multiple purchases and giftings of Morrowind & Oblivion, but if this is the Steamy brown floaty tubular Muffiny image of things to come, it's safe to say you've seen the last dollar from me and everyone else who realizes how screwed-up this is.

Your erstwhile fans and customers hate what you've done and feel a backstab. Does that seem like a clever move now?
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Jessica Colville
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 5:34 am

II think most PC gamer understand that DRM issues, accessibility, and hardware is what limits their gaming medium to such a small market. Boycotting a particular developer only perpetuates this problem.

While I am of the belief their currently exist no truly effective DRM, I also believe a developer would be foolish not to at least try and protect their product and IP. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. Many people will say pirates are can not be counted as lost revenue. I agree. However, many pirates can not be eliminated as potential sources of revenue either.


There is no practical problem with Steam other than a few minor hiccups during launch week, at least from what I can tell based on Skyrim. Not unexpected from a gamesas game. The bigger issue is the principal behind the matter.

Sream model is the future of PC games. Many will not like this, but if you want the PC platform to continue to get AAA titles that have the budget and resources to do it correctly then developers and publishers have to find a way to reach a wider audience. Steam and its model allows that.

Finally, there is a reason why the PC only has 6 of the top 100 selling video games of all time, with four of them being WOW products (which is downloadable content) and the highest being at 22 on the list thesims (. Keep in mind, the PC has the most platforms available in service. Sure DRM has its problems but until piracy, DRM issues, accessibility, and hardware challenges are fixed, the PC market will continue to falter. Boycotting only makes this issue worse. Ignoring the problem, only makes it worse.
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Eileen Collinson
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:22 pm

As a long time fan and player of the Elderscrolls series of games, I am deeply saddened that Bethesda decided to use DRM protection thru Steam as a method to act against piracy. I myself usually purchase multiple copies of each Bethesda game out of pure dedication and love for the quality of the product. NO MORE!!! I am furious with the idea that I no longer have FULL CONTROL over something I purchased. The idea that an update can be pushed to my game without my consent resulting in breaking my games executable is UNACCEPTABLE! It's actions like these that actually motivate consumers to engage in piracy. Any time we as consumers feel cheated or ripped off, it makes us think twice about paying for something again. I will NEVER buy a Bethesda product again unless Bethesda provides a local install version of their game. LONG LIVE LOCAL PC GAMING!!!!

DOWN WITH THE CLOUD!!!!!!
Like any good consumer level software, Steam is set to auto-update. You can turn this off for individual games by right click - properties - update tab.
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Killer McCracken
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:10 pm

I also believe a developer would be foolish not to at least try and protect their product and IP.
Protect their product? Or their profits? The only way to protect their IP is not release the source code, which they do protect. Developers don't even get all that involved with how they market the game anyway, it's the publisher. Which in many cases, is an entirely different company.

Sream model is the future of PC games. Many will not like this, but if you want the PC platform to continue to get AAA titles that have the budget and resources to do it correctly then developers and publishers have to find a way to reach a wider audience. Steam and its model allows that.
I hope your only referring AAA titles to just high-budget development. Because I've seen a lot of "AAA titles" that are crap compared to the creative gems that were released by indie developers and developed for the PC. Crysis 2 is a AAA title, but it certainly is not considered a high-quality game, at least to anyone who has played the first game. A good way to reach a wider audience would be to have different ways of obtaining a game, not just steam.

DRM has its problems but until piracy, DRM issues, accessibility, and hardware challenges are fixed, the PC market will continue to falter.
How exactly is the PC market faltering? From what I've seen, there are so many more games being released every year than the consoles get combined. When you take the "Restrictions" out of DRM, than you get rid of the problems.
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Rozlyn Robinson
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:31 am

Like any good consumer level software, Steam is set to auto-update. You can turn this off for individual games by right click - properties - update tab.
Hate to say this, but you *cannot* turn off the auto-update. At least you can only turn it off for 15 minutes or so, which it will then reset to auto-update. So unless you want to stay in offline mode, you basically have to keep yours games up to date.
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StunnaLiike FiiFii
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:18 pm

Hate to say this, but you *cannot* turn off the auto-update. At least you can only turn it off for 15 minutes or so, which it will then reset to auto-update. So unless you want to stay in offline mode, you basically have to keep yours games up to date.
What? I've had a bunch of games on disable updates for about a year now. The setting sometimes resets when Steam itself updates, but then you just pause the updates and change it back.
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Holli Dillon
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:24 pm

What? I've had a bunch of games on disable updates for about a year now. The setting sometimes resets when Steam itself updates, but then you just pause the updates and change it back.
You have to manually catch it? What happens if you are not at your computer when this occurs?
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Harinder Ghag
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:07 am

What? I've had a bunch of games on disable updates for about a year now. The setting sometimes resets when Steam itself updates, but then you just pause the updates and change it back.
I must have disabled Skyrim's auto-update at least a dozen times in the first week after it came out. Unfortunately it still applied an unpleasant update. Steam should just remove that function, because it doesn't do what it says, or at least there is little point in setting it.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:47 pm

You have to manually catch it? What happens if you are not at your computer when this occurs?
Steam updates don't get applied until you restart it.

I must have disabled Skyrim's auto-update at least a dozen times in the first week after it came out. Unfortunately it still applied an unpleasant update. Steam should just remove that function, because it doesn't do what it says, or at least there is little point in setting it.

Are you running Steam as an administrator?
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QuinDINGDONGcey
 
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Post » Sun May 13, 2012 4:55 am

Are you running Steam as an administrator?
No. Should I?
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CxvIII
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:20 pm

umm... from what I read on the forums here for the last few days this last update was forced even on people that had their updates off for SkyRim.

If that is true, then turning it off is a false sense of security.

Like any good consumer level software, Steam is set to auto-update. You can turn this off for individual games by right click - properties - update tab.
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adame
 
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