Maybe you don't find those features useful, but for the people who do it is an incentive to buy the game rather than pirate it. Steam is a good DRM not because it prevents piracy, but because it provides a reason (and a reasonable price) to buy the games in the first place.

http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html
http://systemicbabble.com/videogames/steam-as-piracy-prevention/

while that may be true of the digi-distro, it doesn't really fit as well with the Steam-as-DRM on disc & that is where most the contention on these threads are

recently my brother said to me that the disc version of FO3 (GOTY) has been a "lifesaver" for him because he doesn't yet have any net access at his new home

now had Skyrim given us an option we both would have bought it

with the size & diversity of the PC gaming community one DRM "solution" just wont fit everyone

I agree that the best solution is to be able to choose, but I don't know how that works for a publisher/developer. I hear it is a lot easier to put their patches on Steam rather than pander to everybody, and then there's the bonus cut of the profits they get for exclusivity.

It's the ideal solution, but probably not a likely one when you think about the big picture.

Money talks. That is the only reason they are going with digital distribution and DRM. They push out a large stream of BS regarding piracy, consumer benefits, value-add, etc. but at the end of the day the one and only reason they choose any platform is profit margin.

Think about it, if I asked you "would you like to pay 100% of your current expenses or 50% of your current expenses?" you would always choose 50%. Publishers (scum of the bowels that they are) also choose 50% but rather than admitting that they lie to us so that we are less likely to ask them to pass the reduced costs on to us as price cuts.

I still avoid Steam except for trivial titles (not counting FO:NV). I simply do not like that they have at their option to decline my 'request' to play.
I would prefer they implement the option to install a purchased game with no ties to the Steam client ~whatsoever. While not preferable... I could better tolerate them having just the option to decline my request for a re-install. Offline mode (oft touted), is only intended for short term (unchaperoned "out of the coop") play ~like playing a game on your laptop during a trip by train; it's not intended (or desirable to them, I'm sure), that it be attempted on a constant basis; and can lead to issues later. Much of rural America is without Internet connection except for dial-up and ISDN... So even if someone installed the game on their laptop at a friend or relative's house... returning home in Offline mode could cause a headache if Steam wanted to connect at some point.

I was really ticked off that New Vegas refused to install from the DVD without an active Internet connection. That silliness alone prevents someone from buying the DVD and installing an offline* Steam install on a system with no Internet. Steam could work as a games manager for retail CD/DVD Steam titles; could even work as an auto-patcher when the system had temporary access to the internet. Though I still don't like nanny-ware running on my PC while I'm running an app that demands high performance. (IIRC The Witcher 2's framerate problems for many were solved with the removal of the DRM that non-GoG versions had been wrapped in. )

I use steam only for Tf2 and if this represents it in any way its pathetic. An update almost every time I click to play, never know what its updating, Even with no update game loads really slow I just open yahoo and read the news while its opening, then the game its self, while fun as heck its also buggy as heck, I get these sounds stutters or something where the game freezes and the sound loops some times I have to hard reboot but if it does snap out of it my graphics are messed up and I have to tab out of the game to fix it. The rampet cheating were you pay a server for extra powers, basicaly pay to cheat.Thats it the one game play on steam. Fun game when it plays good, I do sometimes play half an hour before a freeze.


So now steams on Tes games, Bethseda opened up the door and let them in. Was Bethesda and Tes games doing ok before steam? Why didnt there customers have any say in the matter? Does it make the game better? Why are long time loyal customers hung to dry just because they have slow internet? I was a long time fan here myself and these days im questioning my own loyalty.

Connected to the internet or tethered to some program like steam to play a Tes game is in its self the biggest imersion killer of all to me.

Almost all of that has nothing to do with Steam; it has nothing to do with a game's load times, bugginess or performance. Even less to do with unofficial servers, which is what you're choosing to log in to. Constant updating is a legitimate and frequent complain with Steam, but in this case is also more to do with the game in particular, which has very frequent updates.

The answer to all of your questions is money. Customers pretty much never have any say in corporate decisions: they're made by the bosses who decide based on what will be more profitable. If they feel joining with a service will bring in more money than is lost by driving some people away, they will screw over those some people without hesitation.

That's not really refuting my point, though: for some people it might be an incentive, but for probably as many others it's a disincentive. Since there's no incentive for me but a noticeable amount of problems, I wouldn't describe Steam as "good DRM" at all.

I belive it has everything to do with steam. Tf2 and steam are produced by valve. Ok put it this way any other game I own that lets say needs a disk to play fires up 10 times faster then tf2, I mean just getting to the dang title screen. I dont know any thing about this unofficial serve stuff you are talking about, I just click, join game or something underneth the picture of the huge bomb on a cart, I have like 5 different options for other type of games I can play, it chooses the server not me. All the stuff I complained about I just choose to put up with it because at this point the enjoyment out weighs the hassle for the moment.


So your saying Bethseda is a money grubbin company, of not then I am. Too bad, because not all companys are moeny grubbers some still value their customers.

The servers the game is putting you in when you press that button are unofficial servers that are hosted by other players, not Valve.


All companies need money. Bethesda has become a large company that makes very popular, high budget games, so naturally they're going to need more money to make better games. That's not to say they don't still value their customers. They made a lot of changes to the series with Skyrim to appeal to people who didn't like their past games, plus they did a lot to ensure that longtime fans wouldn't be disappointed as well.

Regardless, Steam has an offline mode so people like you with slow internet connections don't have to deal with it while playing the game.

So this is the steam thread so I have one question. A gentleman was kind enough to lend me the legendary RPG Morrowind. It came in the mail as a disc for the PC. I installed it, and instantly added it as a non steam game. However, at some point I'll have to mail it back. If I were to buy Morrowind on Steam, will I still have my save files? I really don't want to lose the character I've been working on.

Yes, but they're not really related. If Oblivion crashes I'm not going to blame Morrowind just because they were both made by Bethesda. If you want to comment on Valve's quality as a developer that's a separate issue entirely, but problems with Team Fortress 2 are problems with Team Fortress 2; Steam is not making your game load slowly.

To be safe, simply copy your save files to any folder, then add them to the savegame folder after reinstalling.

thanks for the advice

Here is a question.

So, DRM should be removed in all forms.

How many copies of non-DRM games are stolen each year from the people who develop and then publish the game?

The numbers are available.

Even inflated: I WOULD LIKE ONE OF YOU PRO-PIRACY ADVOCATES TO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IMPROVES OUR CHANCES OF GETTING DECENT PC GAMES IN THE FUTURE. THE COMPANIES WHO LISTEN TO YOU AND TRUST PC GAMERS GET THE SHAFT. HOW DOES THIS IMPROVE OUR SITUATION. IF YOU ADDRESS ANYTHING IN THIS POST, ANSWER THIS QUESTION FIRST OR DON'T ANSWER AT ALL.

I know people who pirate games and I tell them they are a plague. Why? Because if you believe you are entitled to something that other people work for you are a parasite. I cannot be kind about this.

I live someplace where you cannot buy hard copies of games without amazon. The local retailers carry next to no decent games, and when they do carry them: The prices are universally higher than if I just bought it off of Steam. Heck, I just got like 10 games during their Christmas sale, and still spent less than if I had bought each of the games off Amazon. Heck, 10 games cost me less than Skyrim did.

If something doesn't stop piracy, pointing that out until your blue in the face doesn't solve the problem, it makes you a parrot. Either look for a viable solution or shut your mouth. If they had released Skyrim 100% DRM free, the game would have sold about half of it's copies. Why? Because it would have been pirated to death within 20 minutes. Zenimax knows this because they aren't idiots.

When PC game piracy is not as prevalent, to the point that selling a game with zero protection doesn't mean 40% of the copies in circulation are pirated, then we will have no DRM. Until then, it svcks. Tell your friend to stop pirating, because they are the problem. Then deal with it.

Doesn't the first-sale doctrine prohibit that? I thought that you become the owner of any software product you purchase at the time of purchase, regardless of whether you have a physical copy in your possession or not, and that any EULA that contradicts that is rendered unenforceable. Or does that only apply in certain states?

Steam is a joke, and something that should be completely abolished. Bethesda isn't much better for using it either, especially for a company that creates games which advertise freedom and openness.

They don't. They value their profits, and that's it. There are countless interviews where Todd Howard states he would never, ever create a game like Skyrim, or a game like Oblivion back when we didn't know about it. They lie, again and again, and do whatever it takes to make more money. They invested a lot of time into the lore of TES, yet barely make any effort to actually conform their games to it. Why? Money, plain and simple. The millions of casual gamers out there don't want to burn alive in the sunlight or become weaker if they don't feed as vampires. They don't want to transform into werewolves at random, nor do they want to actually explore the games in order to complete objectives.

Almost everything you see in Skyrim is tailored to a completely different type of gamer than those who played pre-Oblivion TES games, and all for the sake of making money. Why would you, or anyone else think that their deal with Valve is any different? They do not care what we, as customers, have to say. As long as they have people buying their games, they'll continue to do whatever they want.

Wait, what? The companies who listen to us and trust us get the shaft? DRM affects only legitimate customers. There is also no evidence that DRM actually works to prevent piracy, and quite a bit of evidence that suggests the people who do pirate games either had no intention of buying them in the first place or were already loyal customers who would buy a copy of the game anyway. Games aren't the same as movies, especially games like Skyrim. You don't just play them once and then cast them aside. You also have DLC and mods with the Creation Kit, both of which would at as incentives for people to actually buy the game. In fact, even the GotY edition would prompt people to buy the game eventually, simply because of the amount of content it includes and the price at which it is sold.

It's the customers who trust the video game industry that are getting the shaft. There was a link in this threat that stated Ubisoft's "PC game sales are down 90% without a corresponding lift in console sales." Companies like Ubisoft are hurting themselves and their customers, and all because of this war on piracy that's never going to end (at least not in favor of the companies).

Since the product seems to fall under Intellectual Property, I don't think that applies. Any software makes it clear that you don't own anything except physical space on which the software is placed. So do video and audio.

That's nonsense.
You don't like it for various and probably valid reasons and it would be a lot better if it wasn't so forced upon us through the DRM, but it's not a joke and certainly not something to be abolished.

They can do whatever they want with their own products - but it is a royal pain in the butt if you have no or little Internet I know of several families that only have telephone modems or no Internet access that for them they are basically shut out from the game.
And that's all it is a game - not a diamond necklace.
It's big business forcing everyone to 'toe the line' - do it their way or no way.

There are laws that exist to protect consumers and state that such EULA agreements are rendered moot, but I'm not entirely sure if they only exist within certain states (or which states, if that's the case).

It is a joke. The war is going to continue without end. It doesn't matter what the companies do, there are always going to be people who find ways around the barriers they erect. Again, the only people these companies are hurting are legitimate customers who simply wish to play their games. They aren't stopping piracy at all. Not even close. If anything, the emergence and implementation of DRM has caused the pirate community to respond even more aggressively than before.

So how should they distribute their product? Gamestop locally doesn't carry PC games anymore. The only place around here that carries them is Target and Walmart, and the section at Target has jacked up prices. Who should I pay to get my game? I have to buy it from a retailer at some point. Does that that mean that Big Box retailers are better than Steam because they sell the product for MORE? I mean, they are adding extra so that they can pay for shipping and whatnot, but still: Does this mean that I am more free since I bought a solid copy from the store that barely supports PC gaming as is since their PC gaming section is 1 four high barely stocked with games no older than 6 months?


So, how much care do you want given to your opinion? Name a few games that have 100% conformed to your expectations, in the past 4 years. I mean 100% You had no complaints at all. How many of them did you pay for?

Also, if Beth simply wants to make money from Casual gamers, why did they make a game that took so much development time?

Making money doesn't require huge budget titles. This is true for any industry. If you make 100 crappy titles, with a miniscule budget, and charge half the price of a AAA title, you get a crap load of money in 4 years development time. If you make a game over 4 years, with 10x the budget of those crappy titles combined your not maximizing your potential.

People have done this with stores, products, films, cons, oil fields, ships, planes, cars... Why don't Beth adopt this strategy instead of using lengthy development times and a staff of poorly paid programmers, maybe 1000 of them churning out product for under standard wage? As long as your returns cost more than your price of development your okay. And, all they would need do, would be to open a fake independent company or 12. Group the companies together by signing on as something like Administrative consulting banner for each of the little independents, with a rather rich royalty check paid to Beth as the admin company. If one of their independents dries up, roll it up and sell it.

That is how you really rake in the money and not give a crap about the people who your selling to.




Again, didn't answer the question: Crysis 2 had some ridiculous number of pirated copies. What about The Witcher 2.

How does the untold number of copies being stolen, reinforce that the PC Gamer market should just be trusted. I am not disagreeing with you, DRM does practically nothing, but it's just another step they have taken. They will come up with something else in a couple years...

But again: What reason do they have to trust any of the honest gamers, when there are millions of dishonest people who steal their content? If a game sells 2 million copies and 1 million copies are stolen, they are missing out on huge profits here. They aren't going to just ignore that. Why should they?

If you want to be trusted, it's your responsibility to dissuade people from pirating titles.

Ash87, remember most of us aren't necessarily against Steam distributing just as no one here is advocating piracy it's just that many of us don't see SteamDRM as an appropriate system for the disc version of a Single player game in this day & age.

It is?

But Steam isn't just DRM. It's part of it, but it was also developed as a way to more easily bring out updates (which I know doesn't always make things better, but that's more a matter of Q&A) and as a way to bypass greedy and demanding publishers.
And it became a digital distribution store that greatly popularized digital distribution and a place of gaming communities.

To abolish Steam for the sole reason of DRM is to be unable to look past the other things Steam offers.
They know Steam doesn't stop pirates and that it at most only delays them. But it obviously has been helpful with day 1 purchases. I don't think their DRM has changed for the end user. It's still a one time activation after install.
Their focus has been on developing what Steam offers to someone on it. They aren't always successful and it doesn't please everyone, but it does not make the entirety of Steam a joke.

If your unhappy that is one thing, fine: I"m not directing my ire at you.

For the many people who are up here saying: "No DRM, I wont buy products from games without it, there shouldn't by any copyright protection on any games these days because it wont do the company any good anyway." They are the people my posts have been aimed at.

Long live GoG Eh? (And indy devs that sell direct as well as on Steam.)

The CE is good for the Statue... but isn't it essentially just an outdated Steam install on a disk?