Which may well be true. But this issue isn't about updates to the Steam client. It's about forced updates to the game program when the setting was supposed to be off.

I know just in the few times I was poking the Steam client (and bashing my head against a wall wondering why people like this crap) I checked the game's update setting several times, and EVERY DAMN TIME it had been silently toggled back on by Steam. So I no longer fire up the client for any reason now because I don't want to have my game corrupted beyond use.

It's not just false sense of security, it's outright false. There are people who have verified that even when the auto-update being off was behaving itself, the update was applied by force anyway.

Also - for those who keep claiming this came from Bethesda. It did not. The game executable did not change one bit other than the wrapper code. This update was forced by Valve, not Bethesda.

PC Gaming is doomed if this kind of thing is how the future will work.

Maybe not. I've been thinking lately about future consoles. A lot of people seem to be so sure that future consoles will not even have a optical drive and instead have every game downloaded like Steam. If this is the case, then DRM has certainly affected the masses of gamers. Obviously, there are far more console gamers than PC gamers. Imagine this setup:

You buy a new console, and every game you buy is now tied directly to your account. You cannot resell your games, you cannot get a refund, and Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft all have the ability to take away your games at any time. If your machine is stolen or otherwise rendered inoperable, you may need to appeal to the company to get your games back because they might think you're trying to install games on multiple machines.

Now that might work with PC games, since we're such a minority and no one has the money/willpower to sue companies like Valve, but there are lots of people who have consoles. Do you think that kind of practice would go around for long? The right person will eventually be wronged, and lawsuits will follow. Hopefully the public will then see how draconian DRM schemes affect us and call for restructuring of our laws in regards to all of this. Those laws would have to apply to PC software.

Maybe the future will play out differently. I don't know. But I do know that there are more people who would love to sue Microsoft (rightfully so) than Valve. Maybe the ones to do it would be game stores, since everyone would be downloading games and retail boxes would essentially be gone.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2010/04/19/hear-that-knocking-sound-its-pc-gaming/

There never will a fool proof DMR. Because those who create DMR have to be ethical in how they monitor/protect things. Those who break DMR are not. Just like we will never be virus free. Too many people enjoy cracking and making viruses.

With that said DMR is a good thing if implemented correctly. I see no issue with steam, if they have a one time activation at the start, and re-activation with every patch (DL through steam).

They should also know what major mods are being used (they can't know them all of course) but I'm sure they knew if lla as so many use it to make the game stable. So If you are going to patch in DMR that prevents client modification, make sure you also patch in stability fixes that people were modding the client for.

Wow would rental stores be pissed if ps4/xbox720 went steam. There goes a pretty penny on rentals.

How does the fact that it was only changed to include the drm it was always supposed to mean it wasn't bethesda?

Bethesda has to apply that. Valve isn't going to mess with a company's product and expose itself to liability.

A thread in this forum was closed by an administrator here who noticed that someone had advised someone else to launch TESV.EXE without the Steam client running for some reason. Thread closures by admins. rather than moderators are pretty rare, so this got noticed. A day or two later, voila.

I don't have a link to the thread, but I can dig it up if required... if it hasn't been hidden.

It's like the old saying goes "It's the principle of the thing" Allowing any company full control over a consumer's purchased property feels like an invasion of our digital privacy rights if such a thing still exists. I feel as if I don't truly own this game. It's as if I purchased a plastic disc with nothing on it but Steam and a license. DRM is nasty word. I feel criminalized for nothing. One bad apple spoils the rest I suppose. BUT, at the very least, Bethesda should still offer a non-steam version.

When NBA 2K first became available on PC (2K9) it was a steam game. Despite installing from a DVD there are some 9-10 hours worth of patching to be done through the client before you can play it. I don't know if this is the case with Skyrim DVD version. Ever since VC/2K Sports has release NBA 2K games with SecuRom protection instead of steam.

Plus how will Steam effect things like a Skyrim scripting enhancer app similar to MWSE or OBSE?

The script extender should work for Skyrim since MWSE and OBSE work fine with the Steam versions.

In fact, after the Steamed TESV.EXE was released, ianpatt had SKSE updated for it within a few hours.
gamesas kept their word and didn't use CEG.

Oh, good news then. As long as I can still mod without any artificial barriers I'll be fine with steam. Does the DVD version install quickly or is there hours of online patching required before play? I have broadband, but it's like early 2000's quality broadband.

I think about 200MB from what I've heard. Yeah, only 80x the size of Oblivion's patch... what an improvement! {/sarcasm} But at least not in the GB range... yet.

The technical issues of Steam aside, whether offline mode works as advertised or auto update really can be disabled or will mods still work, it has a very aggressive business model that would be considered illegal in any other industry. It is a 3rd party service provider that you must patronize, in other respects this would be called 3rd Line Forcing and would be met with huge lawsuits. Imagine buying a car and being told that you can only use a specific brand of gasoline or can only use a specific mechanic. Imagine that GM has signed a deal with Exxon, Big O Tires and Pep Boys and anyone who buys a GM product must use these companies for all services or else have all their GM products recalled by the company. Exxon, Big O Tires and Pep Boys would never have to spend a dime ever again in advertising; they would have guaranteed customers for the foreseeable future. When was the last time you saw a advertisemant for Steam? How many companies do you know of that get to be number one in their field without ever so much as putting up a flyer? Of course if GM were to ever do this they would get slapped down pretty quickly for forming a cartel. Every other car care provider on the planet would be due a huge cash settlement and the companies involved could cease to exist.

What if you were told that because you bought a GM product you have to have your radio tuned to NPR whenever you start the engine, once the engine is running you can change the station or put in a CD or even turn the radio off but it must be tuned in for the engine to start? What if you could be charged with Grand Theft Auto for disabling the link between the engine and the radio? After all NPR is free and you should be able to pick up the station just about anywhere in the US, if not then you should consider moving to a more populated area just to purchase a car.

Imagine if the requirements for Skyrim were that you must have a Dell computer, or that you could only use a Logitech mouse and keyboard. Would that be okay? I don’t like Steam, I don’t want to be a Steam customer, why must I use them? They provide no services that I want and, as recently observed, are not actually necessary to run the game. It is not a true requirement, it was artificially injected into the software to create a dependency, this is not case for things like Video Drivers and DLLs which actually are used by the game. If I were to custom build a Linux box with a home made GPU and was able to get my purchased copy of Skyrim to run on it would that make me a pirate?

The way Steam currently operates cannot last forever, eventually other Digital Distributors/Authentication Services/Game Developers are going to take legal action against Steam and when that happens everything they have done will be in jeopardy. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to stuck holding a bunch of useless Steamworks discs when that happens. I certainly don't want to be a company like gamesas who has tied themselves to Steams anchor.

The solution is simple, no title sold at any other outlet can have Steamworks as a requirement except for Steam. No retailer should have to sell free advertisemant for there competitor.

I agree with what you say SteveDog but Steam is not even mentioned in the advertising or on the box. It only says "Internet connection required". That seems underhanded to me since Steam is needed to even run the game. Instead of "Internet connection required" it should say " Broadband internet required with Steam account activation" and the Steam logo should appear somewhere in the advertising and packaging since Steam is an absolute must have. If Bethesda is so happy with only using Steam shouldn't it be stated clearly in advertising and packaging?

Are you sure? Every recent Steamworks game box I have seen recently says you need internet connection and a Steam account to play the game.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/cover-art Not the logo, though.

I stand corrected but I think the logo should be prominently displayed so one could see quickly and easily see that a game is tied exclusively to Steam.

By the time you realise they've got your money. What do they care after that. It's not as if you can resell it. Hang on..... the crafty little tinkers. And there I was thinking the only reason they did all this so you could have those oh so precious achievements.

All this is ever going to come down to is that forcing steam svcks. Making it optional for those that wish to use it doesn't. Everyone is going to have their own opinion on steam and those opinions hardly ever change and shudder the thought that someone else has a different opinion. It just descends into cases of "The auto-patching is so usefuland essential" with a rebuttal of "You're too lazy to type the words "game name" and "patch" into a search engine" and who knows how many comparable arguments.

I think what makes steam so frustrating is that it has nothing to do with the game itself. Ubisofts always on DRM is hideous but you expect it on Ubisofts games. What on earth do Valve have to do with Skyrim, Civilisation 5, Modern Warfare 3 or any of the titles that have had Steamworks put in them?

If steam had remained a store that people can choose to frequent then great, for those of us with no interest in it we could avoid it. Steamworks though in its unavoidable nature really needs to do one.

This, so very this, that's why I feel Beth had a good balance when they let Morrowind, oblivion & FO3 be in the Steam store & the physical copies not needing steam. that opened them up to a new demographic.

I just got LA Noire. Now, I might not have had steam decided that the absolute BEST place to tell me that I needed Gameshield (something I need to pay for) and Rockstar social club at the very bottom of the page, beneath the system requirements and all of that stuff. So rather than doing the smrt thng and including Gameshield with my installation and NOT making me install Social Club, they made me do that. I am also reinstalling the game as by the time I saw that I needed Social Club it was already installed. I am so mad >
Edit: I didn't pay for Gameshield, hoping that they installed a free version for me. Now I've never had much of a problem with DRM on games I've had before as I usually have a constant connection but this... this is bullcrap.

@Texnshasta

WTFH!? DRM that you must pay for?

thanks, I was curious about LA Noire

it's off my list now

Why would you ever have to pay for DRM?

http://www.gameshield.com/Home.aspx
I will report if it works after it's done installing. There is a free version but it's a timed trial, it seems.

That site is not for end-users. You don't have to pay for your DRM, that's ridiculous.