This is whats good about digitial distribution and I would personally love your vision to come true. Its another and sometimes better system for users and provides another option. The only problem is who would be the person/company/organisation oversseing the system as they would want money for the service or to gain exclusive deals with game developers that the game could only be played on their system. Hacking attacks, service stoppages or even rivals using perverted legislation such as proposed SOPA bill could crash the entire system as well. The entertainment industry is already trying to censor the internet and I doubt retail stores would welcome a united platform to distribute all games without a challenge.

Steam is the good (distribution and centralising service) and the bad (aggressively seeks exclusivity and poor human support) in both of these respects and I doubt it will encounter any serious market competition because origin is probably never going to compare. To realistically compete companies like ubisoft and EA cant make their systems treat gamers as criminals.

Bethesda makes game worth buying but never actually releases its opinion on anything and is probably smart to continue doing so.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to add a little checker thing to see if the game was installed using a disc or through digital download.

For example, if you try to install a game for the first time from a burned copy (or with daemon tools) it could say "Please use the original media to install" or whatever. But if the game was already installed with the actual disc, and you're simply reinstalling it for whatever reason, it should let you install from your copy. Could there be a way to pirate it? Sure. You make a law, it WILL be broken. The only problem that this would cause is reinstalling games from copies after a fresh format, although I'm sure the information would be stored in the registery somehow. Plus, you'd still need the product code to activate it.

The only way to completely kill piracy is to destroy monetary value.

I don't think anyone is saying that digital distribution is a bad thing. As you point out it is very convienient to be able to redownload your games at any time. This means, at least in theory, you will never have to repurchase any of your games again. Add to that all the other convieniences and benefits to digital distribution and you are clearly getting much better value with a digital purchase than a physical one, so any hoping that an all digital market would lead to lower prices I wouldn't hold my breath; CDs were supposed to be cheaper than tapes but recording companies are now charging for quality. However a digital market does not workout well for everyone, there are some people who find it easier to just go to the store and purchase a physical copy. For these people the "added value" is either not that valuable to them or in some cases it takes value away. These people should not be forced into a digital market for daring to defy their digital overlords. That is the issue (one of the many) with Steam.

Exactly. As many have pointed out before, we should just get the options. I love digital distribution, I have bought many software titles and games that way, and none tried to force me to use an additional DRM crap. And I can indeed redownload each of the pieces I bought, in case I lost one of them. Those who can use internet/digital distribution, might use it, those who cannot, should be given the CD/DVD. I have been trying very hard, but I still see no positive aspect about Steam interfering here... thus haven't bought Skyrim yet, and while browsing the other sections of the forums (especially the bug complaints and UI issues and CTDs and and and...) I slowly start to feel really content about the fact that I have been resisting of buying it.

My beloved sentence from Sherlock Holmes: 'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?'

So let's eliminate the impossible:
It's impossible for Steam DRM to prevent piracy. I was stunned that an unnamed person already had a 'Steam-less' version before i was able to click 'Buy' in Steam.

So whatever remains must be the truth: since it's not DRM, what else could be the truth ?

I may not fully understand the Steam concept, but there is an old saying:
"When you do not understand where the problem is ... simply look at where the money is flowing and who stands to benefit the most from said problem."

Preventing re-selling of games benefits the publisher the most. So nUbee: you certainly have made a point. And i agree with it.

I agree, and I think it's complete garbage. Game stores like Gamestop have been selling used games forever. You aren't losing a sale when people re-sell a game because the person they sold it to probably wasn't willing to pay the full $60 for a new copy anyway.

I would advise not running the game until patch 1.2 is fixed. Running steam in any sort of online mode will auto update skyrim even if autoupdating is turned off.

If you do want to tryout the new patch or your lucky and read this before updating make a copy of your exe and interface bsa and rename them so you can revert to a playable 1.1 version after getting the update and setting your steam to proper offline mode.

All hail the virgin 1.1 game. All of this crap that's going down right now is exactly the kind of thing I knew would happen.

Well, at least Steam can implode and collapse and they still can't take our Skyrim from us.

I do wonder how many Skyrim PC players still consider auto-update a good thing

I don't mind they're choice of DRM at all. When Valve released half-life 2 i was a bit concerned but now, i find steam more useful than ever. Do you really find steam that troublesome? I seen Valve employees stretch far to meet TES modders requests. That might have been because the employee like TES games himself, but he still needed it approved. If there is a will, there is a way, if you really find piracy morally satisfying. I pay for a game like Skyrim, to support they're work to another TES game.

Auto update kills, another problem that Steam forces on it's users if your unlucky to be online.

And that is entirely your choice, now imagine the least appealing DRM there is out there in your mind, then you will perhaps understand how "we who wish not to be forced to use steam" feel.

Yes I do find steam really that troublesome, Forced to tie "your" game to an account, it is yet another account with a password to remember, it forces updates on you in its normal function (and no I do not wan′t to jump through hoops to get it to stop if I am lucky (read offline mode)), it can deny you the usage of "your" game when ever (it may be unlikely but it is possible, that is unacceptable), it collects information on running programs?(anti cheat stuff) and various other stuff that I have no wish for them to know, you need to have a extra client running on your system that pops up ads in your face (yes I know you can turn them off).

My experience with steam is a bad one, I once tried steam and after about 1 hour of installing and patching and whatnot steam demanded of me I gave up, this is something I have never had trouble with when purchasing a game without DRM like steam (and no it is not better today imo).

But now they may be able to take the modding from us check out post http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1300564-its-been-announced-modders-rejoice/page__view__findpost__p__19580055 of http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1300564-its-been-announced-modders-rejoice/

I think that pretty much seals the deal that there will not be a non-Steam release .. ever. (And being their last two big releases were attached to Steam, I would assume this is going to be the norm from now on.)

Bethesda made some really great games for all of us - and they'll survive no problem with the Steam/Don't Care crowd - but it's sad for those of us who are anti-Steam/Online, for whatever our reasons. They have essentially kicked us to curb. That's life I suppose though. Was a good run while it lasted.

Oh Holy Hell! I guess Bethesda really has just climbed into bed with Valve and is willing to do what their new master tells them to. All this time I have been worried about what would happen to Bethesda and it's fans when Steam eventually goes down for good, but now I don't care. If Bethesda has entwined itself this much with Steam then they can share in its fate.

I'm tired and angry right now and I'm not even sure I want to be a part of this forum any more, it suddenly feels very dirty.

I know you guys are mostly talking about steam and Skyrim, but today I went and bought a retail copy of L.A. Noire to tide me over until they patch the resistances bug in 1.2...guys...I gotta say that this is actually way worse than anything you can imagine. The friggin in-game patcher doesnt even work at all. I've tried everything I can to get their silly MANDATORY patch to install and no dice. So I sent a support ticket in, not expecting much but company line towing and "reinstall it" etc...guess it's back to Skyrim, at least that'll let me play. Jeebus, all this DRM crap really just puts a damper on us paying customers, and I still see tons of LA Noire cracks online. So really what does it even do but complicate matters for honest people? I'm just frustrated another 50 bones down the drain all because of some software patcher (Social Club) that doesn't work through no fault of my own.

I think that they support Steam Workshop is great news.

You're still able to download mods from other sites, it's just another and easy way for modders and customers to upload/use mods.

In my opinion thy are trying to show their player base that thy made the right choice by entangling themselves with steamworks, by now skyrim have the exact amount of patches as oblivion (if i recall correctly), most of them are not so good.
This new Steam Workshop is a way to prove that steamworks is a platform that had been chosen for the benefit of the players, in my opinion the late arrival of the creation suite was due to Steam Workshop, if this are the tools used by bethesda to create the game then those tools had to be available, and only had to be tweaked and uploaded.
The only thing that ive seen is that steamworks only made the game less accessible and with more bugs. it dosnt stop piracy only irritate players.

Or maybe it's a way to give Skyrim buyers a better quality environment out of the box? It's to give the users a mod install experience that reminds them of how seamless it is to browse, choose and install a new app on your iPhone or Android? They even got the part where you CAN use an iPhone or Android to control the install of an app on your PC while I do that in reverse for my Android apps

Valve stand on fighting piracy is that DRM doesn't work well so they instead try to cram as many useful features they can on Steam that require a valid account that bought the game to use. As a result, pirates got a lesser version unless they somehow got a complete Steam emulation running somewhere with the same quality.

After all, Gave Newell said :

"The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates"

That Steams Workshop is also a kind of anti piracy measure. The more mods are exclusively distributed on that platform, the more inconvenient it is for pirates to access them while making it more convenient for legitimate users at the same time! A win-win situation.

Yep I enjoy an environment where broken patches are forced upon me and completely break the game for some.


This is true. But any drm scheme automatically makes the other side better when all you want to do is play the game.

Steam has been my biggest problem with Skyrim to date. I don't have an Internet connection at my apartment, it just isn't in the budget right now. I put money aside for skyrim, bought it and had to take my PC to a friends house to install it. It was working great, I just had to use the TESV.exe to run the game (like every game before steam came out worked)
Then my neighbor left his wireless router open , Skyrim patched itself, and the next time I went to play I couldn't because steam offline mode DOES NOT WORK OFFLINE.
I don't plan on buying another Bethesda game on PC.

Too bad he failed miserably to do that with steam imo, by forcing account association and forcing you to use steam, he has failed in my book, his drm is worse than most out there.


Why do legitimate users usually then have more problems running these then the ones that have illicit copies, Skyrim is a good example of this with steams forced patches, they have given out what 2 patches? both have been game breaking for legitimate users since it has been forced upon them by steam.

I don′t see how steam is going to make it any harder for pirates to acquire mods..

I don't really see an issue with them offering mods on a Steam based service. There are lots and lots of people who really like Steam and it just makes sense to give them that option. It's also really awesome that Bethesda isn't exclusively tying mods to Steam because they've made it clear that they'll still be available on other sites. This actually is a great thing for both sides of the coin.

Now, tying Steam into the CK? That I have an issue with. I really was holding out hope that they would release - maybe even years down the road - a Steam-free version as I REALLY want to play Skyrim something fierce, but it seems this isn't the direction they're going.

We all agree that Bethesda is in their rights to do what they please with their product, but there HAS to be a better DRM then this. Something that doesn't require a third party program or an internet connection for a single-player game. I'm curious if those of you who are knowledgable could answer this: Do you believe there has been an actual decrease in piracy since they've moved to more drastic DRM compared to the number of pirated copies of games that were a simple disc-check?

I dont think we are really allowed to discuss piracy. As I now have to use steam to legally play skyrim I assumed the CK would use it as well and just hope I can have to CK open and Skyrim at the same time and not count as two concurrent logins as I often test mods this way.

The problem I see looming after January is users filling these forums with complaints that the mods have broken their game. Steam workshop doesnt really instruct users how to avoid conflicts or load orders and as it will become the first point of call for players new to mods they will have bad experiences. Nothing in Skyrim was optimised for the PC so delaying the CK to tie in to a third party computer social networking service seems a bit redundant, if the consumer can search online how to change their ini settings to actually use their PC they dont need a streamlined click here to download button on the launcher as they are already reading modding sites.

Welcome back Mordy.


I see thats working well for Skyrim users atm, out of the box automatic downgrades of their game. The workshop will be like an app store that doesnt show conflicting mods and will cause mass confusion but a nice deflection, it almost sounded like you were describing the awesome UI inspired by apple that PC users hate. All the arguements from previous unofficial steam drm threads are coming true so you will need to get some jabs in before this comes about.

I hope the steamworkshop actually works. If it does work it will make using mods easier for the community but I think sites like the nexus will always beat it. I think a lot of effort is going to go into this feature from bethesda as it will want to show that it can provide a quality service to its customers and would feel bad about its history to date with skyrim post release. Its easy to hate on a gaming company for their mistakes and I think they wanted a vastly different outcome to this. I think everyone that worked on the game should be proud of their work but the company svcks at providing information and fixing its own mistakes.

It's always amusing to see people who apparently don't grasp the complexities of modding praising a system that is almost certainly going to lack any awareness of them itself.

Even more amusing to see Steam's sycophants continuing to defend the service to their dying breaths despite EVERYTHING those of us who hate it warned you would happen. Offline mode not actually being offline. Patches being forced even though you specifically told Steam you didn't want them. Valve pushing updates ON THEIR OWN without Bethesda's knowledge. Crapping all over the mod scene by pushing a service that is only doomed to fail in the long run. Even Gabe himself lying through his teeth about how DRM doesn't work despite Steamworks being nothing BUT a DRM suite.

If it hasn't become obvious yet that this was a terrible idea (and it was for NV too) then no amount of evidence of real world disasters involving it ever will and there's little point in continuing to keep track of this thread.