I have nothing worthwhile to write, but in the spirit of TES V's interface, I shall write it in a large font.

But seriously...

Aye. OP makes excellent points, and, ironically, his MS Paint chart is more informative and better-laid out than Skyrim's UI.

One thing that really bugs: everything can be confirmed with the "E" key, and canceled with the "Tab" key...except with smithing, which breaks this rule and forces you to click on "Yes" when you wish to craft something.

Partly, the interface can be explained by being designed for consoles: you cannot move a cursor quickly and accurate over a screen, hence jumping from list point to list point. You can't drag and drop. The giant font, too, is for those who are sitting ten feet away from the TV.

There's other, basic things, though, that are just baffling. All that wasted real estate, when vital, essential information is not shown. The only way to see an item's weight, value and legality (stolen or not) is to painstakingly highlight each item in turn. There's no way to sort by weight or value - which are very important properties. There's no quick way of seeing what you've got equipped. Leaving this out would be OK if they were pressed for screen space, but clearly they're not. This is stuff that needs to be there are at a glance.

The Tab menu is a classic case of not testing the UI thoroughly. The menu I use most of the time - probably about 60% of the time - is the Items menu. I'd imagine it's the same for most people. The Magic menu would come next if you're a mage - both those menus could've clearly be combined into one, instead of hitting Tab, then selecting the sub-menu. They've got the real estate for it. The next would be the map, and, finally, skills.

It smacks of style over substance, prettiness over performance, attractiveness over ability. They really wanted to show off the 3D models, in their little window, and they constellation perk trees (which, by the way, always starts out on some skill my Thief never uses. Conjuration or something.) The book reading is hilarious - it takes about the same amount of time to flip a page as it does for me to read it - but they wanted to show off 3D books. Pure [censored].

Minimalism is fine. However, if it's pointless if it results in a useless design.

It's funny you mention that, because Skyrim's interface is actually far from minimalist - and far from efficient. As any designer knows, allowing the user to get the most things done with the least amount of actions is paramount to a good design. It is also important to help them do it fast and with a minimum of strenuous thought. One of the most important ways to achieve those 3 goals is to utilize screen real-estate effectively. Too much is clutter, too little is inefficient. A balance must be found. This is true whether it be for the web or a software interface.

This isn't just all subjective opinions. This is measurable, quantifiable stuff. Try the following:

1, Count the number of user actions it takes to perform a few different tasks in Skyrim, then count the number of actions it takes to perform the same task in Oblivion and Morrowind. Compare.
2, Measure the amount of time it takes to perform a few different tasks in Skyrim, then measure the time to perform the same tasks in Oblivion and Morrowind. Compare.

Most of the time, Skyrim loses. Sometimes it loses dramatically. That means it is less efficient, less well-designed and certainly less 'minimalist'. We already know it's slow - that's measurable. The OP is an attempt to unravel and figure out why.

Except for the part where the UI isn't in easily modded XML files this time around, and will take more know-how and effort than the average UI mod in prior games.

"If you don't like it, change it" gets a little more difficult when Bethesda's gone and made it harder to do that.

110% agree with the OP. I was slow-clapping through the whole [censored] thing. Absolutely beyond me as to why they would [censored] up the UI to this extent.

Thank you, now I know am not the only one being driver mad by Skyrims interface.
You are officially my god and true guru of user friendly interface design.

Like summer said - differences of opinion are not only to be expected, but perfectly okay. They just need to be done within the rules, and remain on-topic for the thread.

I've removed a number of posts, because there was a little sidebar going on about who has what right to say which things and way. Which isn't the topic of this thread.

Taking off my moderator hat, I rather agree with the OP, here. Personally, it doesn't bug me all that much - but I do think there'd have been a more efficient way to convey the same amount of information.

As well, I don't think the UI interface is an innate property of being "designed for consoles." Because even considering a "consolized" interface, there's no innate property of a console controller that makes aspects of this game's layout (especially the ones some of those on this thread find most annoying) inherent, by any means.

Ahhhh, that explains the perk-trees now! I had no idea that the console users had it easy with the perk tree. For us PC users, the perk trees are a nightmare - it's more luck than anything whether or not you find what you want.

Firtly finding the skill you want - I feel like I have to scroll through the entire "360 degrees" (if you think of it as you being in a circle of the constellations) every time I want any skill, which makes no sense It just doesn't feel at all intuitive finding a particular skill to check it's level or perk tree out - this is after many hours of play and reaching level 30, I *STILL* struggle just to find the skill I'm after.

Then you click to "open" that skill tree. For some reason this sometimes just scrolls left or right one skill... so you have to scroll back to that skill again. Sooner or later you do manage to home in on the skill tree you wanted though and you get the ability to pick a perk to "look at".

Then navigating that constellation - jesus this is more luck than anything else. Clicking the very first perk works ok - but then once it zooms into that perk, trying to browse the other perks in the tree becomes a headache - really I resort to tapped WASD and waiting for it to randomly jump onto the perk I was after. Then of course I decide to just check another skill's tree first before I commit to a perk... which needs me to back all the way out of that tree (I tap S a bunch of times), and then the whole spinning crazily through the skill list process begins again.

I remember this perk tree as "constellations" being touted as a masterstroke, a way of making character development and levelling up a joy - both visually stunning and intuitive, natural. It's anything but.

Here is a cool fact from a different thread. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1267229-modding-the-gui/
GUI in Skyrim is made up of .SWF ActionScript 2.0 and some .GFX files.

This kind of boggles me. The PC uses a pointing interface with many key options, the console uses an incremental-movement interface with few key options.

The main different is the console lacks a free pointer (mouse) that the PC has. On the console, you get from "a" to "r" in a long list by a series of incremental tic movements or a long-hold scrolling movement.

With the mouse, you just go to "r," no intervening steps.

Optimal interface designs are radically different.

Two obvious differences between what we see and an "optimal" interface:

1) Most menus are scroll-and-select then apply action in Skyrim, if designed for PC they would be click to apply action. Three steps vs, one. This is partly because most lists appear scrolled all the way to the top with the top being halfway up the screen or lower. The console controller, lacking a pointer, has no ability to select items out of order.

2) A limited number of keys can be bound in the controls menu, and several commands are either linked to those keys (not well documented) or defined separately and not available to be bound. For a PC interface design, each function would be bindable separately, if you wanted to get fancy you could allow linking. (This was a major failing in the Assassin's Creed interface for PC).

There is more, but I think that's enough.

An interface like Morrowind's is a pain on consoles because you have a lot of stick-scrolling to do to get what you want, whereas on a PC you just point and click.

Very good post. As soon as I looked at the UI, first impression was that it was just incomplete. Probably the poor guys working on it were told, "this product WILL launch on 11/11/11.. *whip cracks*."

You hit the nail on the head. Very good.
I don't like the interface. It's not computer friendly.

I agree with much of the OP, but I legitimately enjoy seeing item models and skill constellations.

I think I get what you're saying. I just think that there's no reason an optimal solution couldn't be found within the same UI interface wherein it the same number of actions to navigate, regardless of whether you're using a mouse or a controller. ie, there's no innate property of either a console or a PC which automatically means any UI is going to be sub-optimal for one or the other.

As well, a lot of the points brought up by the OP apply equally to consoles and PCs, regardless. For example, I play on a PC using a 360 controller. Now, no matter what I'm using, it's still a lot of actions to navigate to, say, the magic menu to check to see if I've contracted a disease. It's not any more... "natural" to do that on a controller.

Even if I was playing on a 360, I'd still rather press one button to bring up a character sheet with overall useful information (what items I've equipped, all of my skills on one screen, any status effects, etc,) and then be able to go from that screen to more specific ones.

I thought the item models were really cool, as well. And conceptually, I really like the constellation theme to the skill list, as well. I think it's kind of fun. But at the same time (and this is the "artist" in me,) I know what it's like to kind of fall in love with an idea too much. There's probably a good way of being able to find a compromise between what I also think is a really cool conceit to the skill and perk list and an interesting presentation; and a layout that's a little bit more efficient at presenting useful information.

Wait! What?

You have to go to the Magic Menu to see if you have a disease!!!!???

No wonder folks are getting Vamped without realizing it.

The item models are good, I don't think they should be removed. They are simply way too large, taking up 2/3 of the available screen space. My suggestion is that if less space were devoted to it, more space could be devoted to the actual inventory list. Then we could see more items on the screen at once, and less scrolling would be required. We'd find the item we want faster and with less headaches.

Indeed, the constellations are quite beautiful. They've obviously had a lot of work put into them, which is why I suspect Bethesda would never alter that screen. It is beautiful, interesting and interactive. It's almost like a mini-game in itself.

Unfortunately, it is also slow and inefficient in actually finding out the information you need. The max number of horizontal scrolls required to find a skill is 11, which is an awful lot of actions (and time!) to simply check a number. I appreciate the 'mini-game' of the constellations and find it quite beautiful, however I find it a little unnecessary that we have to play that mini-game every time we want to check our skills.

Hire this man

The perk thing, while neat, is a nightmare to navigate on the PC. You can tell they've dumbed things down for console gamers to the point of it operating even worse when converted to the PC.

I thought the UI wasn't so bad at first, but now it's extremely cumbersome, and I loath having to dig through it to find stuff now.

I actually like the interface, if they moved active effects to show up on screen it would be a lot better. But right now the way you move through the screens is nice and quick and without clutter.

Someone I know ran around naked for a while because they didn't know they were naked.

This highlights a problem I only touched on in the chart - it is time-consuming to figure out what you have equipped at any given point in time. Here are some reasons why this is harder than in Morrowind and Oblivion:

1, Your equipped items are not automatically moved to the top of your inventory lists. To see what you have equipped, you must scroll through the lists and locate all the marked items.
2, Equipped items are not marked clearly enough - they just have a right arrow to the left of the label.
3, There is no picture of yourself on the inventory screen. This exacerbates the problem somewhat - at least if there was a picture, the player could quickly see what equipment they have. A picture says a thousand words, again.


http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3421/skyrimequips.jpg

It seems like this interface was designed for some apple really devoted fan. It's less practical and more aesthetic.

Elder Scrolsl: IPad.

Zeno, I really like your idea for improving the equipment menus. Very good.

lol are you kidding, Morrowind had by far one of the worst and most cluttered menu systems I have ever seen. Skyrim's menu system isn't amazing but I don't really care about menu real-estate as the actual gameplay is what concerns me.
I have to admit though, I definitely like the pic you recently posted, that's very nice!

I think is too late now, the game is already out and they are not going to change the interface sadly

I think that's probably a step in the right direction.

You know - the more I think about it, it's also a point of a missed opportunity that you press the character screen button, and then have to decide between the four choices (Magic, Skills, Items, Map) before you see anything. Which seems a little counter-intuitive to me. I mean, if you bring up the other menu (the one you get to with the Start button if you're using a console controller) it brings you right to your Quest log; it doesn't make you select what you want to see before you see anything.

I think what I'd like to see is some sort of "home" screen for the character screen - which showed your equipped items, skill levels, magic effects, etc - all on one page at a glance. With then the option of moving toward more detailed information on other screens.

Thanks Zeno, that was an entertaining read.

It's a little tragic, because you can see how the designer must have fallen in love with the interface. At first glance the UI looks cool and the constellation idea was inspired. It just svcks to use it. Managing armor is a huge headache, since I have to scroll up and down to see what I have equipped, and I have to exit the menu to see what it even looks like. Comparing stats is also a challenge since I can only see how an item is in relation to what I currently have equipped, instead of listing damage and armor for everything.

The problems with seeing magic effects and skills have already been echoed many times.

It took me HOURS of play time to realize that there was even an active effects menu! I knew I was dieseased because NPC's would tell me, "You don't look so good", or something along those lines. It was at the very beginning of the game and my main focus was to get cured of.......whatever I had. I had no clue what it was, I just knew my stamina was in the red from looking at the perk tree menu. I eventually stumbled upon it, and i'm still not sure what disease I contracted (I did eventually get cured).

I totally agree with the OP. The UI is horrid. It feels like I spend more time fumbling around in it than actually playing the game Crossing my fingers for a mod to be released for it soon!