I'm still not understanding the backwards feeding. And the stage 4 hostility needs to come back.

same here.
wondering if beth will make the next elder scrolls game a michael bay film...

This is how things need to go with vampires. The Volkihar need to have regular feeding mechanics where they feed to get stronger, and everyday the do not feed they get weaker, and then have all the powers they have from Immortal Blood. And then the current vampires we have in vanilla Skyrim should stay the way they are and be the Cyrodiilic vampires. That is how Bethesda should have done this.

This is what most of us are saying. REL_Dovahkiin actually took the time to write it all down.

If only our dear friend Vsions saw this. I know he visited this thread, but if only we made it before Dawnguard..

[/spoiler]

All jokes and teasing aside, I would like to say that I do enjoy some of what Dawnguard has showed. I have almost no problems with vampire lords and some of the gameplay elements. But what do you, as fans, felt could of been handled differently? It appears many fans enjoy easier gameplay while others like the drawbacks in the gameplay of afflicted characters, whether they are werewolves or vampires.

Though I personally feel(not everyone will share my sentiment in this regard) that some of the things did not make sense. Expecially the wild werewolves, blood potions and feeding animations and zero stage 4 attacks. I think some of the complaints could of been avoided with seperate strains of both diseases and a vampiric face sculptor.

But what does everyone feel? Did you guys expect more out of Dawnguard and did the new changes meet your expectations? No flaming, please. Just constructive criticism.

First of all the drain attack is not over-powered, do I really need to remind people of how weak the vampiric drain spell was before? and kinda still is in human form.
Vampire lords do not contradict lore and they fit in perfectly because nothing says they could not exist. They are the progenitors of the volkihar bloodline and thus should have more powers, first gen and second gen vampires can transform, the less purer vampires cannot, simple.
The vampire lord is not truly copying markus as Bram stoker's Dracula, House of frankenstein (tv mini series), Van-helsing etc all had vampires that had a demonic bat-like form. Markus is not unique at all and the face of the vampire lord resembles Dracula more just with a pale skin colour instead of green though I don't deny there are similarities between Markus and VL. The progenitors of other bloodlines could easily have their own demonic form, who knows? But nothing is against it.

Vampires still lack physical bonuses such as extra unarmed damage and bonuses to one/two-handed weapons but dawnguard has made a step in the right direction, now they need to change the feeding system so you need to feed regularly to get more power and maintain it. This adds to the curse side of vamprism because you need to feed to keep strong, the whole backwards feeding thing is very lazy in more ways than one, first it is recycled from oblivion and now players can just be lazy to be strong. Bethesda really needs to change the feeding system. Secondly, they should add some physical bonuses and sprinting should be a tad faster.

So what I think they should have done and could still do if they felt like it, is this.
Vampires.
Advantages:
Added physical bonuses.
Correct the feeding system to "real vampire" feeding.
Increased sprint speed and jump height and length.
More vampire factions or at least missions from the court.
Vampiric frost breath and a mist form lesser power while in human form.
Sort out the race bug that prevents some races from having the updated eyes and face.
Extra dialogue with some vampires like sybille stentor. (how the newborn alva can sense me and the decade age long sybille can't is a mystery...actually it is probably an over-sight by the devs)

Disadvantages:
In addition to the current weaknesses the vampire should have these.
Only able to get the well rested bonus from sleeping in a coffin.
Weakness while in divine temples (same stat effect as in the sun)
People knowing what you are and they will still speak to you but are wary of you and you will get get higher fines than usual if you break law and even if is paid off, you will encounter vampire hunters the next you are in that city.
Unable to wield blessed and/or silver weapons.
Random vampire hunter attack.



In addition to the above, there should be a lesser power version of Vampire Lord that just gives the player the bat-like face and pointed nails, maybe in this form does the player get greater physical and speed benefits, or it can be given anyway and the bat-face put as a stage four vampire thing (especially if the feeding system does not get changed) or just as a vamp face for ALL stages, it will make a good consequence.

Werewolves.
Able to still change at will but the forced monthly transformation gives out a stronger and tougher beast form due to the "natural " timing of the change.
Wild werewolves can infect you and joining the companions as a werewolf already will yield unique dialogue.
Werebears and perhaps even wereboars.
Hircine's hunt missions but instead of mortals fighting his lycanthropes, it will be were-beast against another.
Silver does extra damage (if it does not already) and cannot be wielded by a lycanthrope.
Random attacks by werewolf hunters and rival werewolf/bear packs.
Factions/packs that you can join.
A first person view for werewolf/bear and even vampire lord.
Wolfsbane poison.

Humans:
get powerful weapons and armor that vampires and werewolves cannot have.
Divine powers that only humans can have and use
Divine spells that only humans can have and use.
Light and dark magic.
Necromancy and able to join necromancy faction (available to all maybe)
Able to become a lich. (vampires and werewolves cannot have this)
More college missions.
New spells and able to upgrade spells at the cost of of higher mana consumption.
More imperial and stormcloak missions.
Add more cruelty and evil to the imperials as so far the imperials are painted in a more positive light than the stormcloaks. So maybe some members of the imperials should be very sadistic and cruel (like the romans that they based on)







Weakness to temples, unable to get blessings from some shrines. The bat-like vamp faces that npcs have would be good for the player to have.

Indeed. But while they are currently known to be purebloods, it doesn't mean vampires who are known to worship Molag Bal cannot be purevloods.

Purebloods are not simply vampires that worshipped or still do worship molag bal, they are vampires who are closer to the source, such as a progenitor of a bloodline and its sired progeny. So far only the first gens and second gens can be seen to turn into a vampire lord, Vampires of the next generation presumably do not have this ability.

Is there proof of this? Does Harkon specificially say he is the progenitor of the Volkihar clan and only them can be pureblooded? Valerica never states it is Volkihar tradition, just merely tradition that females be offered to Molag Bal. What can stop a vampire from another clan to make the same pact, and ritual and become vampire lords?

I think molag bal can turn someone into a pureblood of any clan he wants.

Yeah, as long as they show they can hold their own in strength and etc. Harkon was more or less a tyrant and he killed a thousand innocent people to be given the gift. If other vampires can top that or at least meet those requirements, Molag Bal would just grant them that.

Is there proof of this? Does Harkon specificially say he is the progenitor of the Volkihar clan and only them can be pureblooded? Valerica never states it is Volkihar tradition, just merely tradition that females be offered to Molag Bal. What can stop a vampire from another clan to make the same pact, and ritual and become vampire lords?

Of course another option would be just let Molag bal temporarily turn you into his play thing...

I think molag bal can turn someone into a pureblood of any clan he wants.

The proof is in paying attention to the game and the dialogue. He refers to the second gen vampire player as a half-breed so that kinda of implies he is pure blooded otherwise he would be a big hypocrite.
Of course the family are the progenitors, simple logic. They were directly created by molag bal thus making them the first of their strain of vampirism, they lived in a castle called castle volkihar and serana mentions on how Lamae is not only vampire created by molag bal. The vampires created by molag bal seem to be pure-blooded and thus it can be deduced that they are probably the progenitors of their bloodline.

Basically it can be assumed that all the progenitors of the bloodlines of each clan are the people that were directly turned by the king of [censored]. The vampires he creates would probably always be pure-blooded.

Half-breed means turned vampires, as you said. But are they really the Volkihar? We know it was implied from Immortal Blood and an ingame journal that the Volkihar clan was not the only clan in Skyrim. It is plausible they just lorded over the baser vampires and dubbed themselves the Volkihar. And if lamae is not the only vampire created by Bal and their family was also, that means other vampires from other bloodlines can also become purebloods. Lamae was the first vampire, but from her blood many vampires were created.

You hold a point of them being the first of their strain, but I still doubt their family is the only purebloods out there.

This is what I was wondering. I also wonder, how much power does a Daedra Lord have over a human? If Molag Bal can bring people back from the dead(Lorgrolf. The player in his quest in Oblivion. Players in Elder Scrolls online) then can he affect a child with vampirism? If he can create vampire lords and if Hircine, the father of manbeasts, can create a weredaedroth, then certainly he can make it so a vampire child is born from a female's womb if she is already pregnant.

*coughs* oblivion *coughs* grey prince *coughs*

To be pure vampires? Agronak was an exception because he was a half breed. What I mean is.

Vampire parents: "I want my child to be a pureblooded vampire. He/she must grow to a certain age where vampirism can blossom and truly take hold."

Molag Bal: "Offering?"

Vampire parents: "Over a thousand souls. And ourselves."

Molag Bal: "Done."

This is what most of us are saying. REL_Dovahkiin actually took the time to write it all down.

If only our dear friend Vsions saw this. I know he visited this thread, but if only we made it before Dawnguard..

The fact that Serena or ANY other Vampire other than the Order Vampires look human and can walk into towns without being attacked is lore breaking. The fact that they don't die in the sun is lore breaking.

We couldn't have foreseen what was going to happen with Dawnguard. It think everyone was caught off guard by everything that happened to vampires.

Although it didn't break any known lore because lore already stated that Volkihar clans are only vampires that can walk in sun with some negative affiliations. And it's called retcon, newer Elder scrolls games will always replace some old info with new info, that's fact.