I see this arguement every where. Did anyone see how Dunmer treated Nords in Vardenfell? Atleast he put a roof over their heads.

Playing through with my second character, since I know now much about the lure in Skyrim. Both are Nords (I like them simply and love the natural resistance to frost, feels natural to take that race in such an environment). Love to play games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and help people around no matter what's the race the NPCs are and I really didn't like the way how Ulfric treated other races and only supported Nords, so I went for the Legion in order to stop Ulfric with his selfish acts and restore peace and show the Empire, that Nords aren't all that bad and egocentric selfish bastards as Ulfric! Playing within the ranks of the Legion was fun and reminded me much of movies like the movie Gladiator, Centurion, Eagle, tv mini-series Spartacus: Gods of the Arena and other similar movies/tv series! I wish though if the Empire would have more variety in armor, like in Morrowind, where you could see the upgrade process from getting crappy leather imperial armor till heavy imperial armor, that was very disappointing, since I really wanted a nice tank-like armor for Legion, that would be equal to Steel Plate armor or better.

i can see your point, still, a man fighting for his god and his way of life is a force to be reckond with.

but does not matter in the least who rules when the thalmor sets their sights on argonia, the hist will defeat the thalmor easily (albiet with great loss for argonians)

Contradiction detected.

An easy victory is one where you defeat your foe with little to no loss on either side, because your foe knows he's defeated already.

A massacre is one where your foe refuses to accept this or doesn't realize it and you have to do things the hard way.

"With Great Loss" implies a pyrrhic victory, which is not an "easy" victory by any stretch. Where both sides are too evenly matched, and neither backs down from a straight-up fight to pursue some other advantage.

The best way to shove one of the Thalmor's own jackboots up their posterior orfice is through unity against them. Hammerfell is learning that the hard way. And if Ulfric wins, Skyrim will too. And with High Rock cut off from Cyrodiil from Skyrim's secession, the Empire will be weakened to the point of complete dissolution and no one will be unified enough to push back the Thalmor.

I wouldn't worry too much about the effects of Talos worship being banned. IIRC, I mentioned in this topic the Talos shrine that the Legion camp in The Rift has stashed not too far away from camp. They still all do... just now in secret. The Thalmor Gestapo "Justice"iary can't be everywhere.

Especially if you take care of any you cross on the roads.

contradictions are so much fun

That would be outright scary. If in cannon the Stormcloaks did win.

Hearing about a mass genocide of all non-nords in Skyrim wouldn't exactly put that Provence in the best light....to say the least.

(and don't fool yourself, once the Stormcloaks took over that's exactly what they'd do)

Heck if they did that, then I wouldn't mind it if the Thalmore crushed them into dust. >_>

I think they'd drive them out and then kill whoever was stubborn to stay.

And then they'd realize too late just how much they lost.

Na much more like the Britons vs the Romans.

Do we have to join anyone? I am about level 25 on my first character (only) and I have been playing since release. I haven't joined a side. I played it like I would in real life. I can pretty much operate without choosing a side. Once I absolutely have to, I will. I am a Mage. I just wish setting up shop in the Arch Mage's quarters was easier.

Despite the intro, I seriously considered helping the Legion until


Plus, their guards hated you in Oblivion, even after you saved the world from a giant 4 armed demon of death. Murdering them all was my revenge against those ungrateful bastards.

See this is where you lose the argument, this is how true Nords fight. They fight with passion, courage, and with their beliefs closest to heart. Ulfric is an honorable Nord, he hasn't taken the beaten path that the imperial supporters in Skyrim have taken, that the Hlaalu took in Morrowind. Ulfric has faith in his men, His god (Talos), and his own abilities, this man is the leader the Nords need to show the Aldmeri the meaning of wrath.

The Spirit burns strong but the body would crumble like a sack of potatoes.

Ulfric has ambition and resolve, but those are not what wins wars.


The Aldmeri Domininon fought the Empire to a standstill-when it was stronger than it was now. Skyrim-if left on it's own-would crumble under the heel of the Dominion.


The Empire only play puppet so that they can later cut the strings. Discretion is the better part of Valour, and Ulfirc has none. He can't even succeed in rallying a nation behind him-what hope would he have of facing down the Dominion when it came to call?

A united Nord force would have very little difficulty with the Aldmeri. The Nords spent years fighting with the Dunmer. The Nords are the only race to ever take land by force from the Dunmer (When going toe to toe, the crisis in Morrowind now excluded). No enemy has ever fought the Dunmer successfully and won (Look at the Imperials), The Nords unified could lay waste to any force the Aldmeri could and would field (The Dominion lost all it's armies it sent to Cyrodiil it would be an absolute disaster if they set foot in Skyrim).

Yes but there are other peoples living in Skyrim now. If the Nords wanted to fully unify they'd have to 'eliminate' every other peoples living there first.

That might cause a bit of strife, among even the most loyal of their people.

Giving the Thalmore, just enough time to make a move.

Yet, for Ulfric to get the nation to unite under him he would have to take by military might. THose who did not agree with him being High King he'd have to bludgeon into sumbision.


The end result is that if Ulfric wins, it's with an entire nation feeling the post-war Hurt. Leaving Skyrim not only weakened, but weakened and alone.


THe Aldmeri Dominion took on The empire-when Skyrim was still part of it- and still unified-and nearly won. You're saying that a weakened Skyrim would take on the Aldmeri on it's own?


There's a Bold struggle, and then there's Mass Suicide.

how is that? the 1st things you ever fight are stormcloaks....

Khajiit Overlord Rainer hit the nail on the head.

While a united Nord army would be strong it would still be no match for the entire Dominion. The Dominion knocked the most powerful army on Tamriel around and conquered half of her provinces. Facing a single province of, as Overlord said, divided and even more battle worn warriors would hardly prove impossible.

You must also consider battle tactics.

The Dominion is largely Altmer. One can assume that a core aspect of their army are their Battlemages. Not just your regular run of the mill mages but battle trained, battle harden mages. The Nords are, for the most part warriors who shun the magical arts. The very landscape of Skyrim actually FAVORS the Dominion. Nords have to get close to do damage, the Aldmeri Battlemages would, and could, rain death and destruction upon the Nords well before they ever got into range. The hilly and mountainous landscape even plays in favor of a ranged magic army. The most favorable landscape for the Nords is around Whiterun, in the plains.

The Nords will be facing an entire army of trained and disciplined magic users. Even their infantry wields magic to some degree. While the Aldmeri would be hard pressed to fight the Nords in physical combat they would absolutely decimate them at range. They would know this as well and they would use it to their advantage. 50% Resistance to Frost spells wouldn't help either as the entire army would be smart enough to use only fire or lighting on the Nords.

The Nords were crushed by Elves before, in Ysgramors time. Ysgramors only saving grace was that he was able to flee back to Atmora and collect a new and massive army to return with. The Nords of Tamriel have no such haven. Were they to be crushed by the Dominion they would be hunted to extinction as the Aldmeri would know the Nords are unlikely to ever lay down their arms. Not to mention they're vengeful and would likely seek retribution to how the Nords treated the Falmer.

Not reading all this thread because I'm guessing there's a major main quest spoiler somewhere in amongst it all.

I did not assume any side from the outset, I've seen a few saying "but the empire wanted to chop off your head"; I only saw two that wanted to continue with the execution, Tulius and the captain, the others did not voice any opinion and the guy reading the list was sympathetic, you the player are caught in the middle of a civil war and the obvious choice may not always be the best choice, don't assume until you know more, I've played and investigated far enough not to trust either side.

The Stormcloaks are a great faction. Not because they're underdogs. I really couldn't care less about an underdog faction. The reason I love the Stormcloaks is that they are a likeable faction. Ulfric is an excellent speaker and really cares about the people of Skyrim, at least the men who inhabit it. He does want to crush the Thalmor and I respect him for that. Not to mention the Stormcloaks are very powerful warriors.

However, the Empire is better suited for an invasion of the Thalmor. Skyrim is a great platform for attack as the cold bitter winter will severely lower morale of the foreign Thalmor military, especially those in Elsweyr or lower Cyrodiil who haven't experienced the bitter cold. Not to mention Skyrim is perfect for guerrilla attacks for the Nords that know the terrain. Ulfric will most likely win the battle at Skyrim.

But what about after that?

"Sure let the Empire handle it". But that doesn't solve the problem. I want the solution to be: Destroy every last Thalmor bum and burn every single manifesto they have unless it's of great importance to the faction that's doing this. The Empire cannot handle it if Skyrim's resources are all gone and a potential enemy is right above Cyrodiil.

Maybe Ulfric will keep going and attack the Thalmor in other provinces. But that cannot happen. Ulfric will lose the battles where the Thalmor have operated since the Great War. Remember, Nords are a shock troop rushing type of group. Using that melee only combat style against battlemages will lead to a sizable portion of the army being wiped out before they even get into striking distance. Not to mention the Thalmor soldiers are, as much as I'd hate to admit it, very skilled in close quarter combat. Not as much as a Nord army but good enough to destroy even more Nord soldiers.

If the Stormcloaks win, they'd secure Skyrim for sure. But at the cost of every other province.

Even if the Stormcloaks win they still loose....in a way.

A grand exodus and/or genocide after they close the borders would still be jarring, and might divide the people once more.

Families destroyed, friends separated, shops closed down, people taken away in the middle of the night...never to be seen again.

Not all of them would be happy about this.

Skyrim for the Nords remember? Just for the Nords....

Yeah I'm really confused on that point. Non-Nords support the Stormcloaks, at least I've seen a few that do. You can join the Stormcloaks no matter what race you are...and Ulfric really doesn't discriminate against Bretons and Imperials*

*Yeah, Imperial Legion is hated by Stormcloaks but not the Imperial race apparently

Yea I don't get that either. From every single bit of story it gives us, it would seem that the Stormcloaks would never accept anything other than a Nord. Not to mention let them raise within their ranks.

Imperials I can understand but Stormcloaks? That seems really out of whack.

Unless they plan on 'disposing' of their non-nord help after they win. That would make sense in context.

Well they kind of have to allow that. Technically all of you Argonians and Khajiit wouldn't even be allowed into a majority of the Skyrim cities, let alone allowed to join the Stormcloaks. All of you Altmer could kiss your ambitions of rising through the Stormcloak ranks goodbye as well.

While it would be awesome lore and RP wise, every other Joe who just wants to play as a fuzzy kitty or talking lizard would be blowing up these forums. To be honest I like the racism that is in abundance in Skyrim. It makes the world seem that much more real. Previous titles it always made the world out to be a lovey dovey world of acceptance. Sure you'd read books about racism but you never actually saw it in game aside from an off comment a Dunmer might make. In Skyrim racism is all over the place, from the way Nords will talk to you, Khajiit and Argonians being barred from cities and Dunmer quartered to the ghetto.

As terrible as it is, I love it.

...and like the old solder said in Windhelm. Not all Nords are that way.

Most are welcoming to outsiders, and I'm sure the extremist views of the Stormcloaks would not sit well with them.

The Nords are torn between loyalty, and not becoming the very thing they are fighting against.

Which makes the whole thing wonderfully complex.

I hate that in order to follow the Stormcloak side of the civil war, Jarl Balgruf in Whiterun has to be replaced by I like the voice actor for Balgruf much more, so I always want to side with the imperials or go for the peace treaty...