You want a successful game, Zen? Sit down, and pay attention : Othor Games

» Mon May 14, 2012 4:34 pm

All mmo's are the same.

No they are not.

Just stop.

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Poor Battlefront

Well they don't if they are not pleasing the fans. It less about making the perfect exibit of a game and more about making something that is playable to fans of TES. I don't care if this game sells 20million copys, if it doesn't appeal to me then I won't buy it. It would be a shame to see people who wanted a different direction left in the dark for the reasons of profit.

If it is about profit, that means that more people want the direction the game is taking than not.

So you are actually being rather selfish by expecting ZeniMax to cater to what you want, when there are more people out there that want what they are currently offering.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:30 am

The thing is, Bioware has experience with MMOs from Star Wars: Galaxies, and they said they'd give it another shot later because people played it and wanted another. They were just waiting for the right team.

BioWare had nothing to do with Star Wars Galaxies

» Mon May 14, 2012 6:28 pm

The Steps to making TES:O a success:

Start over. Everything you have?... save for maybe the writing? Delete it off your servers, your computers... nix it. The direction you are going is going to get you a failed project. Slapping on the name The Elder Scrolls on an MMO that looks, runs, and plays no different than any other WoW clone out there, is not going to get you money in your pockets, or content consumers. GUESS WHAT? People who like WoW mechanics?... they play World of Warcraft. Just look at what SWG did (in its good days), and compare it to TOR? Great storytelling doesn't make an MMO. MMO stands for massively multiplayer Online.... Not Massively Multiplayer WoW Clone... People play games like the Elder Scrolls because they like carving their own story into a world where the options are limitless. They like customizing their character, or putting together their house, they like having an impact on a world. They like making a difference. And calling PvP your gateway to making an impact, is a lame excuse for a persistent world game that has been used a dozen other times before. Stop going the easy route... If making games was easy as hell and didn't cost a fortune? We'd ALL fricking do it! Work your asses off building a new engine optimized for a massive world that will keep to the heart and soul of the Elder Scrolls games... Afterall, all we want, is to play the game we already have now, in a larger world, with real players. People who play Elder Scrolls like to play Elder Scrolls for the Elder Scrolls experience. Not World of Warcraft with a skin on it themed off of Tamriel.

It sounds to me you guys have done nothing but made a pathetic attempt of making money out of a popular title. You should be ashamed of yourselves!... you didn't get to where you are today by going the 'safe' route, and trying what others have tried. You guys have pretty much defined the ultimate single player RPG experience. You've made it unique to your IP... nothing else is out there like Fallout and Elder Scrolls games. Though there are many good fantasy games out there, they are different. In so many ways... and its not just the textures, or the player models that are different, or the lore of the game. Its how we perceive the world... and how we change it. Its the feeling that we're not playing a linear game, but we ourselves or creating our own story. Its the sandbox experience.

From the leaked information regarding the upcoming Game Informer issue, it is quite evident you all have seemed to forget what makes an Elder Scrolls game. You are ruining an opportunity that you guys have of taking what has made the Elder Scrolls so great and really change the way MMO's are viewed and played. You guys can raise the bar... you guys can make an impact. You guys can revolutionize the MMO genre. But you're choosing not to... why? Because its difficult? Because turning a sandbox game into a theme park in so much easier? Because no matter what, you're still getting a paycheck at the end of the day?

I believe in the Elder Scrolls Online. I believe in what it could be for the MMO Market. I believe that it could be successful. But not with the current game plan. My faith is dwindling, Bethesda/Zenimax. Please, explain to me... why should I have faith in you when you guys choose to go the cheap and easy route? Why should I buy your game if it doesn't live to fill the shoes of the name it bares?

Make me an Elder Scrolls MMO. If it means waiting five, ten years... so be it. I want it... but not this. Not what you're currently promising. This is your chance to make an impact in the MMO industry... on your current path, you are letting your window of opportunity slip away... and once fans lose faith in your company, it will be hard to ever get that faith back. Don't [censored] this up, Zenimax... you only get one shot at a first impression. If you're going to do this game, do it right.

BEAUTIFUL!

» Mon May 14, 2012 5:49 pm

BEAUTIFUL!

Yeah, I still ultimately agree with the OP. Ain't gonna happen, but it damn well should.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:16 am

The biggest, BIGGEST gripe; the art style. Elder Scrolls have this dark, gritty look. They feel and play medieval. There is no room for stylized fantasy graphics in an ES game. People immerse themselves in the medieval setting partly due to the wonderfully detailed world, and partly because the world 'feels' real. No Wow-style armor and weapons. A man in a cloak might be the strongest wizzard in the realm but he is not running around in flashy t13 armor in ES games.
What we've seen so far (and unless you intend to spend the entire year till release changing the art style and graphics) is so generic that might as welll be a Rift expansion. If you take out this "medieval style" , this won't feel like an ES game at all.
I'm sure many more people would stick with a game that LOOKED like an ES game, regardless of tab-target combat, instances, etc.

I agree with this 100%! Man, those graphics look so goofy and cartoony in the leaked photos. The people don't even look right. I suppose that's because they chose to use the stupid Hero engine that SWTOR uses. ESO needs to be dark and gritty. It needs to have characters that really look dark, and badass. DAoC really grabbed me with its look and feel. The dark medieval fantasy setting is my favorite; and even those DAoC graphics are way behind the time, the characters still look more realistic than todays goofy MMO's. In DAoC each character had unique personality thanks to the awesome armor/weapon/cloak designs, and the fact that you could dye all your armor/cloaks/shields/weapons. ZeniMax, PLEASE REDO THE GRAPHICS!

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:15 am

First this will be seperate from the regular Elder Scroll Games or Fallout Games. Why don't you people wait t6o see what it look like before saying it will be bad. I donoy like online games at all.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:13 am

BioWare had nothing to do with Star Wars Galaxies

You are mistaken, and wholly so.

If you recall, they got involved in the production of a supposed second game, which occurred around 2005-2006. When the first one was still running. That was a few years after KOTOR 1. The way I worded it was saying they had 'observed how the game functioned', not 'were involved in making content for the game.'

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:00 am

Actually, Agent, There are people on the TOR development team that worked for SOE on SWG.

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:16 pm

Actually, Agent, There are people on the TOR development team that worked for SOE on SWG.

The way game developers rotate between companies, there probably are also some on the team who worked on some Call of Duty game. That doesn't mean Bioware as a whole had anything to do with CoD - or SWG.

» Mon May 14, 2012 2:59 pm

Actually, Agent, There are people on the TOR development team that worked for SOE on SWG.

True. Like I said though, Bioware was only involved in the supposed second game, which turned out to be TOR instead of SWG2. Having people who worked on the original game would've given them some chance to observe what players liked so their own game would benefit from it.

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:29 am

First this will be seperate from the regular Elder Scroll Games or Fallout Games. Why don't you people wait t6o see what it look like before saying it will be bad. I donoy like online games at all.

Because it will be too late then. Better to make sure a Dev gets it right, then to wait and let them get it wrong.

» Mon May 14, 2012 12:54 pm

Seriously?

Why does every poster here seem to think that they're better at game development than a team of professionals?

Probably because we have been playing online games for 20 years and we know what works and what doesn't work.

Please answer this. What makes these people professionals, if not for a college degree in artistic design or some sort of business management?

I can label myself a PhD of logic and reason as it applies to online gaming. Do you believe that I am?

» Tue May 15, 2012 4:05 am

And about this post. It is what it is. I can handle most of what I've read about their design. Though, there are some things that don't make sense to cut corners on.

Housing, first and foremost.
Class based system, balance issue?
Lack of open-ended gaming - Such as housing, exploration, ships and sea travel, taming animals, mini-games, etc.
A graphics engine that fits the bill, Hero engine and the current graphics do not fit the TES world.

It's not like these guys don't have the time or the money.

» Mon May 14, 2012 9:57 pm

You want them to scrap 5 years of development and huge amounts of investments?

Yeah, Im sure it was "huge".

But yeah, they'll release it, just to get the money back.
It's too late.

» Mon May 14, 2012 4:05 pm

First this will be seperate from the regular Elder Scroll Games or Fallout Games. Why don't you people wait t6o see what it look like before saying it will be bad. I donoy like online games at all.

Because by then it will be too late, Zen will be entrenched into their product, refuse to change it and it will "fail" or more precisely piss of the ES fans and attract a small number of mmo fans resulting in mediocre playerbase. If we want any hope of changing Zen's mind then NOW is the time.

» Mon May 14, 2012 9:35 pm

Seriously?

Why does every poster here seem to think that they're better at game development than a team of professionals?

As some have said. Many of us have been around the block a few times and learned to read between the lines. The info we got so far is extremely typical of the WoW-ification of a game, taking the well established route, not daring to challenge the norm, it will most likely result in a mediocre game, it might turn out ok but I highly doubt it. Besides you don't have to "know game development" to see that the art style is off and real time fps combat and housing works, since other games have done it and often so with alot less resources than Zen & Co.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:50 am

True. Like I said though, Bioware was only involved in the supposed second game, which turned out to be TOR instead of SWG2. Having people who worked on the original game would've given them some chance to observe what players liked so their own game would benefit from it.

I disagree. Having an internal perspective available helps a bit, sure, but normal developers have only a very narrow and extremly skewed view on the end product. They also have none to minimal interaction with the player base. Bioware would have to hire someone who actually studies and teaches game design (say, Dr. Richard Bartle - one of the creators of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD1 back in 1978) or some of the designers (like Raph Koster) and task them with distilling the lessons learned from SWG to gain any significant benefit.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:10 am

Probably because we have been playing online games for 20 years and we know what works and what doesn't work.

Please answer this. What makes these people professionals, if not for a college degree in artistic design or some sort of business management?

I can label myself a PhD of logic and reason as it applies to online gaming. Do you believe that I am?

What makes them professionals? They get paid for their work, and if it svcks, they get fired. Your ability to play games does not give you the right to write a piece of condescending trash to a group of strangers who do this for a living.

By your logic, sports fans should be given more say over team management than coaches and movie audiences should be put behind the camera.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:34 am

What makes them professionals? They get paid for their work, and if it svcks, they get fired. Your ability to play games does not give you the right to write a piece of condescending trash to a group of strangers who do this for a living.

You can create a game in a span of a week; sell it once, and you're a professional game developer.

Yes, it is that easy. No, it's not quite as easy as it sounds.

» Mon May 14, 2012 3:04 pm

The way I worded it was saying they had 'observed how the game functioned', not 'were involved in making content for the game.'

What does that phrase even mean. It sounds like you are saying that BioWare folks played SWG as part of their research, which seems like a bit of a 'no duh' comment.

» Mon May 14, 2012 11:28 pm

You can create a game in a span of a week; sell it once, and you're a professional game developer.

Yes, it is that easy. No, it's not quite as easy as it sounds.

Absolutely. And I would urge everyone who's agreed with this ridiculous letter to develop their own game and see how well it sells. Then see how much they feel like writing a letter proclaiming their own omniscience in an area they know nothing about.

» Mon May 14, 2012 11:56 pm

You want them to scrap 5 years of development and huge amounts of investments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI&feature=fvwrel

it WILL FAIL as is.

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:08 am

Absolutely. And I would urge everyone who's agreed with this ridiculous letter to develop their own game and see how well it sells. Then see how much they feel like writing a letter proclaiming their own omniscience in an area they know nothing about.

The points are:

* You don't need to be a professional and qualified content creator to be a professional and qualified content critic. The two skill sets are mostly orthogonal.

* "Professional game developer" is a damn near meaningless title. The barrier to entry is really low, about on par with being a professional cat owner, just with less cat fur.

» Mon May 14, 2012 2:36 pm

The points are:

* You don't need to be a professional and qualified content creator to be a professional and qualified content critic. The two skill sets are mostly orthogonal.

* "Professional game developer" is a damn near meaningless title. The barrier to entry is really low, about on par with being a professional cat owner, just with less cat fur.

Oh, I agree. The problem is that most critics are people who didn't have the skills to actually create anything of worth in the first place. That said, even the worst critics wait until they have something to critique to let their arrogance loose on the project.

And if the threshold is so low, then I strongly urge the OP & Co. to develop their own game. Then they can tell everyone how easy it is and how much they enjoyed having a bunch of strangers attack them on a personal level for daring to put their work out in the public sphere.