Well, people are always gonna be douches.

I don't think so. People love the Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 and Bethesda, since many many years, for beeing the most open world and do what you like Games and Game Company in the world.
And because 450 Million Dollar were put into this MMO in the last 5 years so it could bring a company down, if this MMO came out to be a flop. So lets hope it comes out at least with +- 0, and the next single player open world game from gamesas is secured.

TES VI is already secured. Bethesda Game Studios and Zenimax Online Studios are both funded and staffed independently of each other. Bethesda Game Studios will continue to produce the tiles they would produce even if this MMO were never announced.

This doomsaying is misplaced. If TESO flops, then the worst that will happen is that Zenimax Online Studios will be defunded and the game will close. But Bethesda Game studios will not be affected.

I hope that makes more sense in German.

Unfortunately, people will make the mistake of hating Bethesda. The Elder Scrolls name may still be sullied, one bad apple spoils the bunch. Think of how many people lost faith in TES after Morrowind and then after Oblivion and even after Skyrim, do you honestly think that this MMO wont have some negative impact on the series?

I pretty much agree with the OP on this one. If I wanted to play an MMO like WoW or Guild Wars, I would go play them. They've had time to tweak, balance, and perfect their designs, other developers (big and small) have hoped to cash in on this by making their games basically run the same but with minor (and I do mean minor) tweaks to appeal to a larger fanbase. Bethesda established a wonderful series, and now Zenimax has the potential to muck it up by taking a route like "every other fantasy MMO" instead of making it more like the entity that inspired it. SOE took a leap with SWG and it was awesome. I personally think that it was the best MMO I've played (even after NGE). I think that TES:O would make a wonderful sandbox MMO, and I think that it's really the only way to do it right. (speaking from a fan's point of view, not a developer's.)

Another thing to add as well, if Zenimax completely fails, this could potentially shut down future opportunities to make another Elder Scrolls MMO.

It does, lol. When somebody feels too confident, they get devil-may-care.

Yet each one one in order far outsold the preceding one and attracted more fans than were ever lost.

we cant do anything about it.:/

Indeed, yet fans were still lost is my point. The Elder Scrolls will still survive long after the MMO (operating under the assumption that it doesn't do well), but some people will hold grudges, and I'd hate to see even a single person dislike the Elder Scrolls entirely because of a single iteration. Kinda-sorta related: I've had a few friends stop playing the Halo series all together simply because of Reach's release.

I plan to not bother with the MMO and stick with the single player series, I imagine quite a few people are sticking with this thought as well.

Are you sure Bioware worked on SWG? That isnt ringing any bells. Oh thats because it was made by Verant/SOE and NOT Bioware. And TOR turned out the way it did because of how Bioware / EA wanted to make a single player story the main part of the game nearly completely ignoring the MMO aspect and so far it looks like TESO isnt going to be doing that.. Its shooting for an actual MMO experience with adventure and conflict.

Having Matt Firor and some guys from Origin is plenty good enough for me to be excited to see this game in action.

Be very careful. One of the stupidest declaration in history, made about the Titanic, was "God himself couldn't sink this ship." God didn't need to sink it. Human arrogance did.

Now I am not going to take a side in the argument about whether or not an MMO was the right choice for the franchise, whether or not the right people are developing said MMO, or whether or not the MMO is being designed the right way. There is merrit for both sides of each of these arguments, based upon the history of expectations for both MMOs and games in general and the expectations for the Elder Scrolls in particular.

In terms of things that are abandoned for one reason or another, or changes that make the game less appealing to fans who have supported the franchise heretofore, has an adverse effect. For every fan that is lost, for whatever reason is a customer your the competition gains. I'm tired of corporations who view any loss of customers to the competion as being "acceptable losses." Especially since the losses are not really necessary to begin with. Spell making did not have to be removed from TES in Skyrim, for example. It could have been left in. Full-blown crafting was added in, and alchemy ramained. Spell making could have stayed in as well, rounding out the process. In terms of this MMO, the list of things that from the core series that are reportedly "too difficult to include," are essentially staples of the Elder Scrolls from the beginning. The statement rings hollow in my mind from the simple standpoint that they have all taken one form or another in MMOs that are far older than World of Warcraft.

Zenimax would do well to listen to the community feedback on this, seriously take it to heart, and in the year ahead work on a way to implement as many of these things by launch, and the rest as soon as possible afterward.

And MMO must be designed to cater to not one or two playstyles, but rather as many as possible. Even one playstyle that gets marginalized by Zenimax durring development represents an entire cross-section of players. In some case, multiple cross-sections.

Allow me to illustrate. I've known people who love both PvP and PvE who won't bother to play a game that offers solid gameplay in both aspects. Ive known people who love both crafting and Raiding who won't play if Crafting isn't given serious consideration for end-game viability. I don't want to see a single playstyle given less consideration than another.

Right now the closest thing to sandbox gameplay that exists in online gaming to have come out in the last few years is browser games like Farmville, Petville and many other such games. They allow players to shape their little gameworld however they want. And look at how many people play them. Some even purchase coins to advance the growth of their game. It's no small niche market that the MMO industry has passed over these last few years. Imagine an MMO where you can maintain a farm like in farmville, but within the scope of an MMO. Imagine tying food production into the ability to support armies and garrisons of troops as the three factions vie for dominance of Tamriel. Imagine if on that farm we have our own house to give us a sense of ownership within the world. That is what holds people to MMOs like Ultima Online, EVE Online, and formerly Star Wars Galaxies. Something of us lasted within the gameworld even when we were not online.

I don't know if anyone from Zenimax is reading this. But you have an opportunity to reshape the MMO arena. I cannot speak for anyone else, but for me the things that we have been told won't be in the game because they are "too hard to achieve in an MMO" are the things which actually drew me to MMOs I have played in the past. If they are not a part of TESO, what do you expect will draw me? I love the Elder Scrolls. But slapping a name on a box is not enough to get my subscription. I love Star Wars. But because Star Wars: the Old Republic does not have the elements that draw me to MMOs, I neither bought it nor subscribed to it. And you know? I don't feel like I am missing out on anything.

I will not call for Zenimax to scrap everything they have done thus far and start over. But I will ask that they take a serious look at what players are expecting for TESO and do their very best to see it added, if not at launch, as soon as possible afterward.

I realize that the information we have is grossly incomplete. But what has been said so far has not been an encouragement for a lot of people. Pay attention to what they are saying. Use this time that is left to you on development and make sure that when the game goes live, the concerns of may will be rendered moot.

I wish you guys the best of luck with this endeavor. Take care...

The team at BioWare-Austin includes developers who formerly worked at SOE on Star Wars Galaxies. So by that token, they have experience with SWG.

I never made any declaration about how this game will do because quite frankly, I've no idea how well it might do. I did say however that with each iteration of The Elder Scrolls, they have gained in sells and fans despite some saying they lost many.

No matter what happens in any series, some play every one and are happy, some aren't happy and stop playing and some new are attracted.

This may be an unfortunate move that flops but thus far there have been losses and gains with each new game in the series but each new one far outsold the one before. I'm sure no crystal ball gazer who can predict how this game will sell. Merely pointing out to someone that despite losses of some, the gains in fans and sells has far out numbered those so unsatisfied they left the series behind.

While my post was in response to yours, I was attempting to speak in general terms. I see the "Yeah, we'll lose some but we'll gain more," statement thrown around, sometimes by developers themselves, and it always angers me. BioWare's Gordon Walton will never live down his "Let them quit" statement at the GDC. What is so hard about a developer paying attention to the reasonable requests of potential customers and implementing them in addition to whatever they think is so awesome, but the community doesn't really see it that way? If it CAN be done within the reasonable expectations of development and development can still keep with their design goals, wouldn't it make sense for them to swallow their pride and give the community what it wants? Too many developers seem to suffer from either-or syndrome. With them it's got to either be this or that. The fact that it can be both never crosses their mind.

Another incident with BioWare and SWTOR was that when they were in the process of revealing what to expect from gameplay, One of the devs made it a point to say that they intended to make TOR into a Sandbox/Themepark hybrid. But then durring Beta they practiced revisionist history by backpedaling on it and going so far as to say "What we meant when we said that was," and proceded to give some sort of lame statement that was the polar opposite of that was actually said. This is another reason why I did not bother to purchase TOR. Because this statement was a reversal on what was, and they KNEW to be, a major selling point for a lot of people. See, they KNEW what a significant number of people wanted, suggested that the product was going to provide it, knowing full well that they weren't going to do it. And they thought we were too stupid to realize that.

I'm not saying that this is how it is going to be with TESO. I'm willing to give any new development project a chance. I want to warn you guys now. I will be very open and honest with this community and with ZOS on what I think about things as they are revealed. I may come off as being critical. I have followed the development of enough MMOs and have seen enough examples of developers not playing on the level with their community to recognize them when I see them. SOE pulled that garbage several times durring Star Wars Galaxies' development, and I recongnized the same patterns in TOR's development. I spoke my mind there and got ridiculed for it by the "In BioWare We Trust" crowd, but in the end I was proved right. Having said that, I want to make it clear that my intent will always be to help make this the best possible MMO it can be. My track record of being proved right on so many observations is very steady. ZOS would be wise not to dismiss them without considering their validity. I am not bragging. Quite frankly, I wish I were proven wrong on a lot of what I have observed in the past. I actually WANT to be proven wrong, and will gladly admit to being wrong if I am.

You see, I want into the MMO development industry. I've got so many concepts banging around inside my skull that it's driving me nuts. I know the concepts I have are professional development team worthy, because some developers have actually implemented ideas I've had, but never shared, and they were well received. I had a concept for a game like BioWare's Neverwinter Nights, in terms of user mods that download in mere seconds because all of the assets are stored locally and only the data files that tell the game how to place them and how they behave need to be transferred. That Idea came to me FIVE YEARS before NwN was even announced. The fact that a professional team came to the same conclusions I did, proved the validity of my reasoning.

Problem is, I don't have a college degree in ANYTHING, I cannot afford to get one anytime soon. All the professional positions have a degree listed as REQUIRED, not preferred. Either that or a minimum number of years of experience. But I'll never get the experience if nobody hires me. Yeah, I know... Boo hoo hoo. the point is I've got major obstacles in the way of getting into the industry, so I have to live my dream vicariously through those who are there. Nobody wants to hire an idea guy, in spite of the fact that without ideas there can be no game. It wouldn't be so bad if I actually saw new ideas being presented in what the industry offers. I've got my eye on The Secret World and Guild Wars 2 right now, because they are the two pending MMOs that even remotely seem to be wanting to try to innovate to even a small degree. Now I've also got my eye on TESO.

Well that's the rundown of what I am about. I spoke about human arrogance, and I know some are probably thinking that I am expressing arrogance of my own. I assure you that is not the case. I speak only from YEARS of observation and experience on how many developers relate to their potential customers. I'm not afraid to point things out when I see them. I know I'll be ridiculed for what I point out, but I'm used to it and have grown some pretty thick skin.


Yes. I know. But like I said, the problem lies with developers who are too rigid in their own creativity that they refuse to see where it would be in everyone's best interest to give a little. Why make a unilateral decision that knowingly alienates a portion of one's potential player base, when it is not outside of the realm of possibility to add what is being asked for so you can keep those people as well as add new people? MMOs are very diverse in their playstyles. And each of them are going to voice their concerns about what the game in question does or does not offer them. Many times the concerns of one group are completely dismissed in favor of another group. The developers in those instances are ignoring the fact that the way to approach development for an MMO is to draw as many playstyles to the game as possible so profit can be maximized. They dismiss concerns as trivial and people just give up. Those developers practice what Gordon Walton preached about "Letting them leave." But what they don't take into consideration is that these people could potentially bring hundreds of players with them. They are members of huge guilds in other games, and they want to make sure that the new MMO in development will have a place for everyone. The largest guilds in an MMO are the most diverse. And in some cases, if the word of just one person suggests that the game isn't going to offer a place for everyone, if that person has proven himself trustworthy in the past, entire guilds go on that one person's recommendation. So right there, one person could have brought hundreds of new players, but because of the developer's "This is how we want it and so that is how it's going to be" attitude, it's hundreds of new players that will keep their money flowing to the competitor's coffers.

It is my hope that ZOS will not be so inflexible that they cannot see the wisdom in some cases of taking what the community says to heart. If one person says something feels wrong, that's just one person's opinion. But when the majority says something feels wrong, and observation shows that many of those who feel that way are typically on oppiosing sides of issues, then it should be sending a clear message to the developers that they need to rething the situation and try to find a solution that satisfies the concerns. Yeah, it might mean delaying the game's release by a couple of months. But you can only launch an MMO once.


I realize that. But developers can only ride that mule just so far. At some point, they will jump the shark so badly that it won't work out that way. Not only will they lose fans, but they will fail to attract enough to make up for it. And at that point, they will never regain what they lost. SOE exoeruebced that with Star Wars Galaxies. Their fundamental design changes alienated more and more of their already hemorhaging player base and drove them away at each change. And they NEVER regained what they lost. All because they refused to listen to the voices of reason in the community. Not the ones that called for grandiose additions to gameplay. But the ones that simply asked time and again for the bugs to be fixed and content to be added. None of the grand changes they made to gameplay were asked for by the community...

So ZOS needs to take time to identify the level-headed clear thinkers in the community and put stock in their observations. And actually let it have an effect on forward-going design. People will always ask for the impossible, or at least for what would be a ridiculously major undertaking to implement. But at the same time there will be a few who will put forth great effort to examine what already exists and propose concepts that are reasonably within the realm of possibility based on what's already there. Sometimes, little things can go a long way towards big results. ZOS needs to be flexible. If they are not, then this game will not reach anywhere near its full potential.

Star Wars Galaxies should have been a phenomenal success. SOE was sitting on a goldmine. They just refused to dig. So SWG spent eight years dying a slow and painful death.

I am very optimistic in terms of the potential I see in this game. I intend to be a part of this community for the duration. And I promise to try my best to be one of the level-headed clear thinkers in the community. Sure, I'll lock horns with ZOS and members of the community. But my intent will never be malicious. I want this game to be successful.

Take care...

Sometimes it hurts to do the right thing.

OK fine.Ill log in just to comment on the first comment an concern.Alright im going to start this just by giving you my experiences first an i want you to judge them from my personal experience first before posting crude comments based on my experiences rather than opinion of what i should have done with my experiences.

First i have been playing games sense Atari.One of my most favorite was Alternate Reality the dungeon for the Atari 800XL.I have played Everquest until they focused more on raiding an not having fun.I played World of Warcraft on a Enhancement Shaman from the time of it's release an Enjoyed playing a Fighter who cast spells heals himself an can wield a 2 handed Battleaxe.Sound like a game you are playing now? OK.

In Everquest they changed the game constantly. I played a Erudite an found it to be ok being a Paladin but wanted to dual wield.I saw no reason why not.I played the Death knight didn't like it.Don't really enjoy playing evil.It got boring real fast for me.That's just my experience.After many years of World of Warcraft i found problems with designs.Changing classes drastically to fit someones ideals.An not the ideals of the customer.

From a PvP Server i was getting weaker an weaker until i was forced off my server to play on a Player vs Environment server.This is a lesson to learn here.I was not happy an was desperate to play what i want the way i wanted.I did not want to change in the middle of my game into something i did NOT want to play.Which the end result after many years of the shaman which was a Beatem up 2 handed Tank Walking force of doom.That slashes at his enemies throwing lighting an healing damage with powerful magics and was hard to take down without being smart.

Instead becoming a cast magical damage and healing an is killed so easily with no effort or strategy or knowledge of who you were fighting.Basically i just do damage to you an you drop down dead in seconds no matter what you do.You can't defend yourself.You can only spit out damage an die!This not how to design a game.This is something from World of Warcraft that people think the MMO game was meant to be. It is not!

The correct game design is as it was.It was designed the way you wanted it to be for the Skyrim design.(with fixes to magic).The game was balanced by working at something you like to do an getting things done.As you do quest you get better items.However the leveling system does not need to be in the system.Remove that in my opinion.Not as a demand but remove it.Just live the life you live.You start off from a farm like. Or in your case a prisoner for some odd reason LOL! being dragged off again somewhere.Just to begin a adventure but you see everyone is basically based on there toughness by gear an reputation.So you do not really have a leveling system.Your ranked by the person you are.So you get right into the action.

As you get gear you get tougher.So your level is your Toughness or Spells or Gear or knowledge.That is IF you followed a No level requirement.But if you want a leveling system that's fine.But please do not take it out of control.Like in Skyrim you get to about 30 an everything starts to feel easy.A patch could fix this.But in a MMO players must be withing a decent level of each other for Player vs Player.Why is this important.Gankers.A major flaw in many games.It falls under the category of Killing children.Low level means babies an kids. High level means advlts an elderly.People claiming World of Warcraft has a great system completely ignore this.What they also ignore an tell you is great is the gear system where if your over geared with super powerful God Mode gear it makes the game more fun.Check on that.out of 1000 people only 3 people are doing that.An they kill the fun of the whole game.These are the things you need to look out for.

There is no fun for players being attacked by some dragon or player 50 levels over them.It is not fun.You lose players quickly from that.You want a Good gaming experience for PvP. Do not look at World of Warcraft look at Guild Wars 2.When you come to a story board works.Sure then look at World of Warcraft for the most part.When your looking for cool fantasy designs look at them for that as well.There designers team do a good job at backgrounds but not creating Mobs an monsters.You guys are better at it.

But when it comes down to designing detail.I have to say your pretty up there but could do more.The hair is very sloppy in Skyrim the faces have much detail but others are doing a fairly better job at cleanup.The Faces you designed are being replaced by beautiful faces in a land full of crud an deadly bandit raids,murder,assaults,fires,War,Religious fanatics, Dragons and now Adventurers Looting your homes.I mean you have problems.

When it comes down to functions of game design i am sure you will get that but the look must look like what is currently successful.So Skyrim is that graphics mode we need.We need support.Something to make us feel like we are contributing.An take our word for it we try.Let us know.But on mods of use.We like the Sabertooth pet.We like the BoneWeapons mods.We like many things.Working with is to add them to the game without violating or disrupting the experience that others would have if such weapons were trying to load on there screens would not crash there system would be requested. A Designers Mod or Creations Kit for MMO.A set limitations would be required.

Also sound quality is crucial.Sound mods make the world come alive.Running through grass an hearing the grass sounds.This is missing from Skyrim.In a MMO this would make a difference on steath.Getting Guild of Assasins to attack players. Hireings for fun.Companions.These things can make or brake this game.As my final note an biggest one.Detail.I am sorry i didnt say this.Im using.
430 Elite Coolmaster Computer case
MSI 870A Fuzion Power Edition motherboard
that can use Both AMD Radeon and Nvidia Geforce Graphics cards Simultaneously for a Performance boost.

AMD Phenom II 1100T Black Edition Overclocked to 4000Ghz
HIS Radeon HD 6870 Overclocked currently
MSI Geforce N560GTX
On a Dynex 23in TV using HDMI at 1920x1080p
using Lucid Hydralogix ( having driver issues right now but still working)
on 6GB or ram an i could easily go up to 16GB.But i see no need too.
On a Corsair 120GB Solid State Drive III 550/MB per second


The system is Fast an can do graphics like a boss.Why the details of your game do not have a high quality resolution selection is beyond me.For your MMO i hope some higher detailed characters an a very detailed system is avalible for players.please make sure this is included.This makes a player feel more into the game.Unlike Star Wars the old Republic which looked like the Clone Wars series or Green lantern or the incredibles.Which is CGI.I HATE CGI! Remember that when you make this game please.As well as a good description of how to use function an please do not add for PC games the XBOX360 options.Because to be quite honest i do not in any way like having a limitation on buttons.I don't.It is very difficult running the functions on the PC by setting up a 8 button configuration when there are over 48 different commands spells an things that should be favorited.More freedom is why we choose PC please look into this.

Thank you for your time an please look into the suggested an other detailed information provided.Thank you.

Oh, dear ...

What can I say to talk you out of it?

If you really insist: Go make a (smallish) game. Any game. I'd suggest using Unity, XBLA or Flash. Then publics it. Have some 10, maybe 100 people play it (not including your family, friends, beta testers and people you paid to do it). There, now you're officially a professional game developer. Mabye make a few more to get the hang of it. In a year, maybe two, you should be good enough and have a resumee to prove it to get a job at a gaming company.

If you get stuck anywhere, hop over to http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/ and/or the http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/19/game-development - we're all passionate about making games and love to help.

I really wish they would release some numbers on that- I wouldn't expect that audience to be that big. Even those who have posted here saying they like MMO's have also said what they enjoy about TES is the break it gives them away from the MMO environment. I'm just curious if they'll really be catering that much to TES fans, or more to the fringe fans games like Oblivion and Skyrim picked up who had no idea what TES was, but had seen a commercial for a new game. The more casual TES fans don't care too much about lore accuracy, or TES history, and that concerns me.

Which explains why....

- Stats were taken out, which have existed since Daggerfall.
- Classes no longer exist, which is a Call of Duty trope.
- The races are no longer unique.
- Spellmaking was removed, which you could do since Arena.
- The number of basic spells dropped from over 60 in Morrowind to under 25 in Skyrim.
- Perks, a Call of Duty and Fallout idea, were added in Skyrim.
- The intro went from mostly gameplay to railroading setpiece, a-la Call of Duty.
- The PC needs to learn about everything rather having some basic knowledge of events around him.
- The combat got better while everything else RPG related has been streamlined from prior games or removed.

Selling more copies while taking out standards of the series doesn't make your stance on this meritorious. What happened to retaining things from prior games for sequels?

Yeah, those things bothered me also. One nice thing - this MMO is being made for PC users, not console. I hope we see a return of a lot of those classic RPG elements. Bethesda will continue to make console oriented TES titles, though.

I think unique races, classes, and stats will have to come back at some point. Otherwise, storylines aside, why bother playing any other races? That was part of the past appeal as well: Seeing how much the game changed if you picked, say, a Thief class versus a Battlemage class.

Big or small, that is the audience that should be targeted. Because this is an MMO set in the Elder Scrolls Universe, so it only makes sense to develop with those who are interested in both in mind. If this is done, then the ones with a specific interest in one or the other will find the end result more welcoming. That is not to say that they won't have issues with certain elements, but at least neither side will feel totally alienated.


They'll still have the TES core series to do that. But if Zenimax builds enough solo-friendly content into the MMO, then those who wish to take a break from typical MMO mechanics can do so. To many MMOs at endgame establish a Raid or Die!, or PvP Rules! approach, leaving those who just want to enjoy the gameworld and do meaningful things are left out of the equation. That needs to stop.


Well, in that video interview that was recently posted, it sounds to me like lore is important to the developers. It also sounds to me like they plan on addressing the concerns I have voiced in this thread. But I have learned to take anything I hear in an interview with a grain of salt, because I have seen too many MMOs hyped to be a certain way, only to discover upon launch that the hype was inaccurate. If the people who are responsible for the MMO's story and such are attuned to what The Elder Scrolls is about, then it will be an Elder Scrolls game. At this stage, I believe this to be the case. So my forward-going posts will be focused on MMO gameplay systems and how they might be incorporated to best effect.

Since when is retention of things that were acknowledged to be problematic or the loss of things like nametags (because that's all a class actually is) a standard for sequels?

Summer's post was dead on. Despite all the naysaying, despite all the prophesies of doom, despite every "100% Pure Angus-Beef RPG Fan™", sales have gone up, and critical acclaim has remained consistently high for each successive Elder Scrolls title. You can cry about lost features until you're blue in the face, but the market speaks with a much more powerful (and objective) voice.

You should teach a class on how to ensure that no one important will ever listen to you. What you wrote is not constructive criticism at all