Profit is the real reason game developers develop games. I wish people would realize that. They don't do it out of the goodness of their heart. If a massive number of people like the product, then great.

Bethesda Game Studios, with the Elder Scrolls core series, has give gamers who want an awesome single player experience exactly that, earning many repeat customers with each new installment in the series

Zenimax Online Studios, with The Elder Scrolls Online, will be giving gamers who want an awesome massively multiplauer experience exactly that, and will earn many repeat subscribers.

Now if there is an overlap of players from both genres of Elder Scrolls gaming, so much the better for both studios.

I should point out that not everyone who played the Warcraft series has played World of Warcraft. Not everyone who has played World of Warcraft has played the Warcraft series, either. There is an overlap in terms of those who have played both, and it's a good thing for Blizzard

And again, not everyone who has played Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic are playing Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not everyone is playing Star Wars: The Old Republic has played Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.

My point is, that Zenimax is not necessarily targeting players of The Elder Scrolls. They are targeting MMIO players and players of The Elder Scrolls series who also would be interested in playing an MMO that is based upon the IP. And MMO is going to be designed with and based upon mechanics that are best suited to that type of game. But I will say this much. Commercial viability of TESO after its 30-day trial is up will be based upon what it doesn't have in common with other MMOs, rather than what it does have in common with them. Those who would take a break from a game like WoW to check out another MMO are looking for a different experience. If they do not find that, there is nothing to really incentivize switching games. That is something the post-WoW MMO industry needs to learn and should have learned by now.

I will give TESO a try. But I will not continue to play it if it offers nothing any more or any different than what I can find in WoW, LotRO or any other MMO out there. It won't matter to me how closely TESO follows the TES lore. If it looks like every other MMO and plays like every other MMO, then it will garner my lack of interest like every other MMO.

I agree with the original post.. and I had to stop reading after the first page of replies cause it's the same [censored] you hear during the development of every other generic MMO. You'll all be regurgitating the same garbage that has been said in countless beta forums over and over again and it'll have very little impact on the development of this game. Their minds are set.. and they're gonna play it safe no matter what. Your only chance of a unique MMO comes from the people that don't have the money to risk a loss.. oddly.

Some tips for you guys mentioning it being a WoW clone: Don't say WoW.. say Generic MMO. The amount of times someone will say "WoW wasn't the first, stupid!" is ridiculous.. and it's best to avoid because it adds absolutely nothing to the conversation when arguing about that. Generic MMO encompasses this entire idea that MMOs need to be all about standing directly in front of the enemy completely still while spamming 1 to 0.. everything that all of these identical retextured mmos are.

It's sad that I've had more fun in a game like Mortal Online than in a large majority of these generic MMOs on the market currently. These small developers take chances on unique ideas when the big titles and companies simply refuse to add anything besides full voice overs and afk crafting systems while the (Fanbois is censored? It made it sound worse!) shout about how unique the [censored] game is. The small developers are slow and the game has less than a fraction of the content a big MMO has.. and yet these obscure games stand out in my mind.

It seems like if you want an MMOFPSRPG/twitch based game you're [censored] out of luck when it comes to story and character unless you, the player, create the story. For once I'd just love a Mortal Online-esque game with the enthralling story and world of World of Warcraft, SWToR, or anything of these other 'generic' mmos. Neocron was close, but it was still extremely small.. and when the leveling strategies really came about it was even smaller.. stand in the sewers killing rats, kill these mutants, kill these cyclops, cap your character, pvp.

I don't even know what I'm saying here at this point. I'm disappointed in what this game is probably gonna be. I'm very cynical about it being anything but a boring generic MMO.

If anyone says this won't be a generic MMO, I bet you 500 dollars this game will be generic as [censored]. Would you take me up on that offer? Probably not. Anyone who would would have to be insane.

Sorry, let me get this straight. You believe that if the developer doesn't listen to the ramblings of some anonymous person on the internet, that they aren't doing their job?

And I hate to break it to you, but their actual job is to make a game that as many people as possible will want to play. Not just you. As many people as possible. Fun games tend to get wider audiences than games that are designed for people who like to have an Excel window running in the background the whole time.

The one thing that is making me nervous about this whole thing, more than this being Warcraft-lite? The fact that Zenimax Online has zero games to their name, and they're starting with TES. If nothing else, that is the most worrying thing about this game.

I know that Matt Firor, who was involved with Dare Age of Camelot is onboard, but that is not a comfort to me. Nor is how much money something like this costs to build, maintain, and service. If you look at The Old Republic, which was developed over six years and cost in the range of 200-250 million to make, that's a lot of money. The thing is, Bioware has experience with MMOs from Star Wars: Galaxies, and they said they'd give it another shot later because people played it and wanted another. They were just waiting for the right team.

By comparisson, Zenimax Online has no experience making games like these outside of one or a few people, and is following the same route: Voice acted story, different ways to play, hotkeyed combat, ect. Things that, even in The Old Republic, people are tired of. Which is one reason why most TOR servers are running at Low to Minimal capacity all the time. The subscription fees notwithstanding.

Now, going on what the OP said about throwing this game out, I agree, except for one thing: The graphics/modeling engine doesn't need revamping. The combat/skill system does. After all, models, graphics, and shaders are not tied to combat systems wholesale, so only change what needs changing. Look to Guild Wars, which they are doing, but also to TERA, Dungeon Fighter Online, Rusty Hearts and other MMOs that offer unique combat systems for ideas. Plus, if TERA, with how high powered the graphics engine is, can run with real-time action combat, I can't see any merit to the 'latency' argument for Elder Scrolls: Online.

"It needs to be comfortable for people who are coming in from a typical massively multiplayer game that has the same control mechanisms, but it also has to appeal to Skyrim players." There's the issue most have right there. Which typical MMO are they talking about? From what I'm seeing, it's TOR, WoW, or any other hotkeyed fantasy MMO out there. Many of those have died within one or two years from launch, or are barely hanging on. And as many have said, if you already play WoW, why are you going to switch to another hotkey fantasy MMO anyway?

A better idea here is to appeal more to fans of the games, the most loyal base, and then draw new players in with slightly familiar MMO bits, word of mouth, and early advertising. After all, Skyrim was advertised almost everywhere you looked, and the game sold like mad. As long as the streamlining is kept at a mimimum, do the same here.

I don't want this game to fail, but everything I'm seeing so far does not give me confidence that the game will last, even with the name behind it. Sure, there is money to be made online, but there is just as much, if not more, which can be made with LAN, co-op and team gaming.

Yeah, fixed that for you

It doesnt play like WoW

Then why is the combat not real-time like Guild Wars 2? You overlooked the magazine excerpt that said this cannot have Guild Wars, or real time, type combat due to latency issues.

EDIT: Actually, as I mentioned in my other post, TERA has real time combat, as does Dungeon Fighter and Rusty Hearts. You can leap over or away from enemies to dodge attacks, and the engine in TERA is far more of a processor hog than this may be. Explain that to me.

Guild Wars 2 combat is not real time.

It has a hotbar, and skill cooldowns.

You sure? You can flee from battles you're losing, just like WoW but, you can dodge out of the way from certain incoming attacks on the command of a key press. Something WoW doesn't let you do. If you can dodge an attack versus letting a dice roll tell you you did, then yes. The system is real-time.

The dodge is just another "skill". You double-click the movement key twice and you dodge.

It is more actiony, and the dodge is real-time, but the rest of the combat isn't.

Real time combat is what Skyrim or TERA does.

As does TERA, Rusty Hearts, and Dungeon Fighter, but you might want to double check that claim.

"Dodge uses up endurance which is solely used for this purpose. Endurance has a max capacity of 100 and regenerates over time." It's actually a second stamina bar, if we were running off Elder Scrolls gameplay. Not a 'skill', as you put it. That would mean only a few classes could use it. Every class can use it at will, and some are better at it than others.

Can somebody explain to me what's the difference, whether I dodge with a skill in my hotbar or ... I don't know, just dodge? As far as I can tell, TERA has a hotbar, too.
The difference between hotbar and real time combat doesn't seem so clear-cut to me ...

Guild Wars 2 only has one stamina bar, so it would be like the one stmaina bar in ES if anything.

In ES gameplay every class would be able to use it, just like every class can use magicka, and stamina.

Also every class in GW2 uses the endurance bar the same.

I think they should have announced this 5 years ago and taken fan feedback into consideration during the process of development. With the amount of criticism I see toward this game, it would have to be a real ground-breaker to actually sell well. The Elder Scrolls fans generally seem to hate the lame hotbar gameplay idea, and MMO fans don't give half a crap about the TES series lore. Judging by the screenshots, who would find any reason to choose this game over Guild Wars 2?

Just who is the target market for this game?

skyrim has hotkeys as well...

the only real difference is for melee. instead of the attacks being based purely on swinging your weapon, you also have special abilities activated via hotkey.

for casters the only difference would be not having to go to a menu to change their spell.

what people actually mean by hotbars is "passive autoattacks and passive dodge", since they dont know that hotbars=\= autoattack.

In Guild Wars 2, you dodge by double tapping a movement key, or using Dodge key + movement key. It's not a skill because it doesn't appear in your hotbar. Everyone can use it, some more than others or more effeciently than others.


Except to drain Magicka, you must use Magic. Meaning you have to use a spell that you've bought. It doesn't go down anytime else. Stamina drains while sprinting, jumping, blocking, power attacking, ect. None of those are 'skills'. They're inherent.


I honestly don't know. From what's been said about this being "comfortable for people who are coming in from a typical massively multiplayer game", I'd say the WoW crowd. However, given how real-time, or action, MMOs have taken off, maybe the Guild Wars crowd. They actually do like lore in MMOs, if you read through the history of the games.

Unless of course sprinting and blocking and power attacking are skills.

They could be implemented like Guild Wars 1 stances. They are skill in your hotbar that turn on an effect that remains on as long as you have the stance, but you can only have one stance active at a time.

I'll have to quote Yahtzee here. "You can, but why would you want to?"

I can't see the logical thought behind making running a skill. Maybe running faster, which those stances would let you do, but not running itself.

Because its easier?

Also running faster would = sprinting.

The game is still probably at least a year out. I wouldn't do a lot of judging based on a single screen-shot, even though the screen-shot isn't half-bad.

People are making huge assumptions that this game will be a "WoW clone" or "GW2 clone". Again - pretty early to be assuming either is accurate.

And, lots of people seem about to leap off the roof because TES is gonna have an MMO. Those folks probably need to either leap (move along and find another game that they are actually INTERESTED in), or just get over it, cause this game is coming, one way or another, whether you like it or not. And if the dev-team wanted your input - they would likely have asked for it already.

For the folks who keep making grandiose comments about the "TES fanbase" and such, please - speak for yourselves. Thinking that the 50-100 people who post here somehow represent the thousands of people who have bought TES games is, again, a pretty huge assumption.

And enough with the 'Let me explain how you make a perfect MMO' posts. Come on guys, really. Apply for a job with your favorite dev, or make your own company or something. Posting your blueprint for the perfect MMO here in a forum isn't very likely to do much but allow you to vent while trying to make yourselves look 'smart'.

The GI article just barely scratches the surface of this title. If you are going to judge based on that and a single screen-shot, personally I think that's being a bit short-sighted. But, to each their own.

Making an inherent ability a skill instead is easier? Maybe to program, but not to use. I doubt people would've liked having Sprinting as a Perk versus a simple hold down of Alt.

Yeah well........ mmo makers arent exactly sane.

I doubt it will be like that....... but........

I don't think they need to scrap it, just put a lot more focus on the combat and character development. The GI article did not woo me. The art style looks great in my opinion, but the environment, interaction, and combat needs to be more open. If they need to drop anything, it's the soul snatching, everyone is a hero, plot-line.

Game Development by committee is extremely problematic. The fans that would be involved will change their minds several times on what they think is the best way to go. And they would be as fragmented in that environment as they are here and now. Development of concepts would be held up almost indefinitely as whenever someone would put forth a good and workable concept, someone will scream "no no no no NO! It needs to be THIS way because..."


Maybe... Then again, maybe all it really needs is to surprise the heck out of both sides.


Then the solution is clear. Keep the hotbars to satisfy the MMO players, and load the game up with as much lore that when explored to the fullest lends itself to what has been established in the core series. With events that unfold in the stories ot TESO, futer lore can be foreshadowed through visions, or through prophetic writings. Things that foreshadow the eventual collapse of the factions and how the races will come to view each other. "The eagle shall fall from the sky, its three wings torn assunder in a day of blood and fire and ice..."

"The Prophecies say we shall not always stand together. But we stand together today against common enemies who would seek to destroy us. For that cause our unity is solidified. We will face the future when it comes, but the present is here now. We are ONE!"


Well, we don't know what sort of pricing plan TESO will have. But we know that Guild Wars 2 will not be subscription-based. And as I understand it GW2 is coming this year, while TESO will be coming next year. I'll play GW2 until TESO comes out. And then I'll play, and here's a shocking thought... BOTH of them... Assuming that both of them are fun and compelling.


Their target audience should be the players who like both MMOs and the TES series. If they stay centered on that goal, neither swaying too much one way or the other, they'll have a solid launch.

With the amount of money they invested... no way is that ever going to happen.

+ 100% to the starting post.

In Germany they say: If the cow feels to well, she goes on the ice.

So make it F2P from the start, dont put any more money in it, and maybe you get out with only one blue eye and please stop cannibalising your own lore.