All I can say is that the Empire offers neither.

I'm not the one who posted those original pro-Empire points (though I largely agree with them), but I'd like to ask you some questions. I love these kind of debates, as they make both sides much more grey.

Why do you believe the Empire being powerful enough to oppose the Thalmor is a bad thing? Are you pro-Thalmor?

Do you believe the Stormcloaks would make long-term better rulers? Do you honestly think in 100 years, the Stormcloaks would be any different from the Empire, if they won?

Would you prefer some personal freedoms (for example, guildless necromancy) and very little security, safety or order, or less freedom (example: mages having to join a guild), and comfort, safety, and better trade?

Do you see Empire as pure bad and Stormcloaks as pure good, or do you see them as both grey?

Simply because joining the Stormcloaks seems too obvious. That's what most people are going to do.

Honestly, I'm going to say that I don't know much about the Thalmor. All I saw was that it was the independant government of Valenwood.


Better rulers? I can't say. But in the short term, what the Stormcloaks want is an independant Skyrim. What matters is that the Empire stay out of other people's business and let Skyrim take care of itself. Any one-government-rules-all is a scary situation, one that should be avoided at all costs.


See, I don't equate safety and order with the guilds. I don't see why we can't have order without them.


Of couse I see them both as grey, but morality barely has anything to do with it.

I'm slightly leaning towards Stormcloaks, only because the Legion was trying to kill me for no damn reason.

You have some good points... yes, but what makes you think the rebels will be better? It is this uncertainty that will make me stand with the Empire and help improve its ways no matter if that is a gradual process..

Anything is better than the Empire...

the Legion where going to execute you even though ur not the criminal they where looking for and you were not on the list of people to be executed...

enough said

That's neither here nor there. Which is more important?

Let's say, just for argument's sake, that the Stormcloaks wanted to give the Nords of Skyrim a democratic, less centralized society free from Imperial rule, and give individual Nords the freedom to live their lives as they see fit... at the expense of all non-Nords.
Maybe they would throw out any non-Nords, even if those people had lived in Skyrim for generations. Maybe they would even be willing to reinstate slavery. Anything to make sure that the Nordic people could live comfortable lives.

Meanwhile, the Empire was an extremely centralized and overly bureaucratic autocracy in which individuals had little personal freedom, but:
every race was treated the same way, everyone had jobs, and there was little to no crime.

Which would you prefer?

Well, in terms of story and plot development, definitely the first. But obviously that's not what we're discussing, so:

In that case, the Empire of course. So yes, there are certain instances where, IF the situation is truly either/or, I might prefer the Empire. But unless I'm very much mistaken (please correct me if wrong), the Stormcloaks are not at all Nord supremacists.

ANARCHY!!!

I'm not saying they are. I actually have no idea. I was just curious.
Also, I'm overtired (it's 4:15 am here) and have no idea what I'm doing.

Aye!

Your evidence for 1?
2. The empire banned slavery. Slavery was continued in Morrowind because the treaty that brought the dunmer into the empire allowed the Dunmer to continue their old traditions. The rest of the empire was disgusted and frustrated by that.
3. Evidence?
4. Likewise, see no advantage/disadvantage to the Thalmor at all.
5. Your last point is entirely invalid, as you don't understand the ways that the guilds work. The head of the mages guild was the one that outlawed necromancy. The guilds do not enforce laws - they don't have any right to. They are there to provide services to the public. In particular, the mages guild is there to centralise the study of magic, so that greater understanding can be achieved.

Both times that Necromancy was banned outright in the guilds history was when the number of necromancers in Tamriel were under the leadership of Mannimarco, King of Worms. And Mannimarco is the one that attacked the mages guild. I don't know of a single Lich in the game that is actually "white", all of them are most definitely "black" and evil. Mages guild is entirely justified.

Also: Empire wasn't a dictatorship. No difference between the Empire and the modern USA. In fact, the empire is even better than the USA - it has one central authority, not all of the state authorities making conflicting laws with one another.
Skyrim did have a king. It was his death that sparked the civil war.

Nah, I'll just join whomever have the coolest looking armor.

If it's them, they'll have me...

Might. I've left my future first character a blank palate for now other than plans for the start, even then interactions aren't preplanned unlike many hours.

However as an Imperialist(Not in race but more to the side, or atleast I doubt it'll be an Imperial) whose fought for them before there's grounds to join and/or aid them.

On another note what I couldn't get into a "roleplay your actions after the intro" thread might be a story/series. Or I'll go with what I have, I think before Skyrim launches. I'll post it in the Artwork/fan fiction section if I decide to post it. We'll see.

I'll be roleplaying the illegitimate Bosmer son of Heronymous Lex. Ironically I'll be a thief who is joining to be a spy for the theifs guild.

Bosmer live as long as dark elves right? Otherwise I'll have to come up with a new roleplay.

For the Empire!!!

Unless I see something in game that completely sways me too side with the Stormcloaks which is doubtful. I probably will have a playthrough where I side with them but I'll even side with the Empire when I'm a Nord.

The biggest reason that I am against the empire is because they bent over backwards for the Thalmors treaty to erase Talos. It doesn't matter what the Thalmor gave up, because in this case they've already accomplished one of their major objectives and the rest follow suit. The Empire doesn't have divine backing, a massive super weapon, or even likable position if legionaries themselves are at odds with the treaty.

I'm joining the Storm Cloaks, I just like to gravitate towards the underdog.

Order brings stability, stability brings peace.

the legion are not going to be in skyrim are they? are they only supposed to be in the government of cyrodill?

They are currently at war with a band of rebels in Skyrim. They have been dispatched to quell the uprising.