So far I was not able to find any "Fortify Barter" enchant. I've got some +10% better prices amulet, but that can't be disenchanted. Is this something I just have to hope to find on some item in a shop?

Sorry I hate all this multiple thread nonsense, I had the old one bookmarked. Yeah I decided to test myself before I read your post. and yeah its a 50% chance to take 0 magic damage. Posting my research anyway even if its already done

I tested the damage I take vs the same caster with lords stone vs atronach vs thief stone (control). my base magic resist is 40% (breton + blessing)

with atronach and control I took 30 damage each time (50x0.6=30)
whilst with lords stone (+25%) I took 17 damage each time. (50x0.0.35=17.5)
however since atronach is a 50% dodge it overall reduces the damage to 15 (30/2).

if I had a +25% magic resist item I would be 90% (85%) with lords stone and taking 7.5 damage. and 65% without taking 8.75 (17.5/2)..

so with higher magic resist atronach is less useful/redundant. its always best to cap magic resist before bothering with absorption or elemental resist. breton is still da best

Elven > Dragonscale makes sense to me now. And on further reflection, I'm OK with the aesthetics, too.

Taking Unhindered to gain a mere 7 lbs in carrying capacity clearly isn't worth it. The question is how much does Light Armor hinder movement speed? If it's actually based on weight, then I would guess that Elven armor doesn't hinder you much at all. But if it's a flat penalty based on the type of armor you're wearing, Unhindered may still be worth it.

I'm trying to compare the value of various perks and enchants. Does anyone know off-hand the maximum magnitude of the following enchants: Resist Magic, Fortify Stamina Regen, and Resist Fire/ Frost/ Shock? A quick Google search couldn't turn it up, and I don't have time to search back through the thread. Apologies for the laziness.

As a follow up, I'm curious how much Stamina Regen is necessary to make it a non-issue for dual-wielders (I'm hoping 2 max Stam Regen enchants are enough so I can skip Wind Walker).

I'm also curious how important Resist Fire/ Frost/ Shock is. I plan on capping Magic Resistance, but in planning my enchants, I'm having a hard time finding space for all three. On a related note, if you could only pick one, which would it be?

Thanks-

Resist Magic: 23%
Fortify Health Regen: 36%
Fortify Magicka Regen: 72%
Fortify Stamina Regen: ??
Resist Fire/ Frost/ Shock: 43%

Elemental Resistance is applied to damage that makes it past your Magic Resist. With maxed MR, your ER will only apply to the remaining 15% damage.

If I had to choose only one, I would max Magic Resist.

The win for taking Unhindered is that it unlocks Wind Walker and Deft Movement, for 10% avoidance in melee and 50% faster stamina regen. So, sure, your armour weight is probably not really that big of a deal, but from my point of view, the top tier light armour perks are far, far better than those in heavy, and you need to buy less cruft to get there. Unless you're doing a concept unarmed Khajiit boxer build, I can't think of any non-aesthetic reason to go with Heavy Armour.

Sure, you can stack stamina regen enchants, but they're coming at the expense of damage and resist enchants. One also begins to wonder what else you really need to get, given that the current 26(?) perk build can make you a one-shot killing machine with capped physical and magic resists. What else is on your perk menu, WhiskyJack?

is 47% resist correct? if i know it correctly now 43% is the cap even with the 32% potions....

what is definitly worth thinking about it is the perk snakeblood guys. today i ran into 3 falmermastermobs and thier melee poison nearly killed me off (master difficulty) and that perk gives 50% resistance to poisen with only 2 more perks but into alchemy.

Apologies, you are correct: 43%. I will edit my previous post. Typoed somehow.

I think magic absorb may absorb poisons. Not at home so I can't verify.

Speaking of cutting corners . . .

Since we've surmised that Elven Armor can reach the cap with two perk points invested in light armor, why upgrade the heavy armor side of the tree at all?

You've said yourself that you've determined that perk points may be more valuable than enchant slots.

Are Daedric weapons really worth the extra 4 perk points?

Some weapons numbers. The weapons were made with the standard 4 X +29% smith gear and +130% smithing potion. The character's skills for whom these damage values were displayed are listed before each weapon type.

One Handed Weapons:
Character Stats:
One-Handed: 56
Armsman Perks: 3/5
One Handed Enchants: +188% (4 X +47%)

Maces:
Daedric Mace displayed damage: 366
Ebony Mace displayed damage: 366
Glass Mace displayed damage: 354
Elven Mace displayed damage: 348
Orcish Mace displayed damage: 336
Dwarven Mace displayed damage: 342
Steel Mace displayed damage: 330

Elven does 18 (or 4.92%) less damage than Daedric

Swords:
Daedric Sword displayed damage: 354
Ebony Sword displayed damage: 345
Glass Sword displayed damage: 342
Elven Sword displayed damage: 336
Orcish Sword displayed damage: 324
Dwarven Sword displayed damage: 330
Steel Sword displayed damage: 319

Elven does 18 (or 5.08%) less damage than Daedric

Bows:

Character Stats:
Archery: 33
No Bow Perks
Marksman Enchants: +188% (4 X +47%)

Daedric Bow displayed damage: 182
Ebony Bow displayed damage: 177
Glass Bow displayed damage: 171
Elven Bow displayed damage: 166
Orcish Bow displayed damage: 157
Dwarven Bow displayed damage: 163

Elven does 16 (or 8.79%) less damage than Daedric

I'd be curious if someone else could run these numbers with One-Handed 100, Armsman 5/5, Archery 100, and Overdraw 5/5 so that we may determine the actual end game difference.

I know that this has been pointed out before, but it is interesting to note that the Ebony Mace seems to be identical to the Daedric Mace.

The Elven seems to be a rather "Good Deal" perk point wise as it trounces Dwarven (results arrived at without that quest 15% bonus reward that I don't have) and Orcish. The first heavy armor tree side weapon item that beats it is Ebony. But Ebony takes 4 Smithing perk points whereas Elven only takes 2.

In summary, for only two Smithing points, we get elven armor that weighs 7 lbs for the set vs 81 pounds for Daedric and offers identical damage reduction as both Daedric and Elven reach the cap (elven with two points in light armor) and weapons that are mostly around 5% less effective (with the possible exception of bows) than Daedric.

It's hard to justify spending 5 points in smithing for Daedric for identical armor performance at nearly 12 times the weight and corresponding stamina reduction (hence necessitating the Steed Stone or Conditioning) for the small 5% damage increase over Elven, which only costs 2 Smithing points.

It should be pointed out, however, that Daedric will only cost you just one point in armor proficiency (I can't verify this) to hit the damage reduction cap whereas Elven requires two. Still, to reach the armor cap, Elven costs 2 perk points in smithing + 2 points in Light armor for a total of 4 Perk points between the two while Daedric costs 6. You save 2 perks with elven while shedding 74 pounds from your armor while only losing around 5% in weapon efficacy. And let's face it, these damage numbers are ridiculous anyway. You won't miss 5%.

So now our base demi-god perks look like this at a slim 24 points (down from 33): http://chrizel.github.com/skyrim/#t/7/4w,0,m73im8,3c,-zik0zk,0,x,0

New question: whats better + health or +health regeneration

might be complicated since base regeneration is % of maximum pool. so +health indirectly increases regeneration.

plus I found a +40% health regenerations item in shop, bought it disenchanted it. But I only get 31% on my enchant with 100 enchanting/grand soul. whats the deal with that? are the NPCs stacking potion effects or what?

I totally agree that the Light Armor tree is much much better than the Heavy Armor side and that if you can max elven, there really isn't any reason to go with Heavy.

That said, I'm also inclined to go with Cheshyr's inclination towards putting as little into extraneous armor perks as possible. Sure Unhindered, Wind Walker, and deft movement are much better than the Heavy Armor alternatives, but I 'm unconvinced that makes them worth getting, especially if testing reveals the encumbrance and stamina penalty from wearing 7 lbs of armor to be minimal.

I think you might be on to something.
The damage might only be about 5% to 10% less at higher levels, but I do believe power attack with lighter weapons uses less stamina.

Bah have to wait for work to finish to go home and test this. If this is the case then elven is all one needs.

As for light armor, the 10% dodge is still worth it IMO.

And yea, Breton ftw. Atronch stone + dragon skin (total immunity to spells) is almost as good as Berserk as far as one time abilities go, and Breton got 25% magic resist on top of that.

PS. Whether perk is better than enchant slots, that depends on what level you are planning on taking your character. You can get 80 perks in total but only 7 pieces (6 if you don't use shields) to enchant.

If I wasn't doing precisely this (Khajiit Boxer), I would be all over this Elven Armor build... although I still prefer the look of Glass. :-p

Daedric at 100 Onehanded is in the low 500's. That said, the numbers I've seen imply that Smithing Improvement is independent of weapon type, so the stronger the Improvement, the smaller the difference between weapon materials. Also, Elven weapons do superior damage for their tech level, especially when compared to other smithing tiers.

Best I've ever gotten is +36%. It appears you found an item that is better than we can ever craft... except that it only has one enchantment on it.

Well took me a while to get 100 enchanting. my black star of asura bugged and can hold ANY soul which kind of helped. but my alchemy is still only ~40.

However as interesting as the OP is, its VERY redundant. even without using potions/alchemy at all you can make armour weapons with 100 smith and enchanting which remove all challenge from the game. I'm playing master difficulty and im in god mode without using any stacking/potions exploits, just the intended enchanting values.

my non potion enchanted gear gives me 85% magic resist, 85% physical resist, +160% 2h damage, +120% archery damage, and then 20 health steal on weapons. you already win the game with this set up, I dont understand why so many people are even trying to get maximum possible stats.

My point is the op is interesting research and very useful for game info, but I dont get why so many posters here are trying to emulate it exactly when you can already break the game with intended use of enchanting and smithing only.

TLDR dont even bother with alchemy bros.

Armor Stamina Penalty Testing

I ran a quick test in order to determine the detrimental effect of armor weight on stamina drain while running.

If you just want the results, skip to the Conclusions section at the end.

The test:
I started outside of Whiterun. There is the cart near the stables that you can hire to bring you across Skyrim. In front of where the cart is facing is a sign.

I started in front of this sign facing due West so that bottom the board reading "Whiterun" was barely framing the top of my screen and the right part of the vertical section of the pole was barely framing the left side of my screen.

All tests consisted of me having my weapons unsheathed, though my weapons were two spells.

I then started the stopwatch at the moment I started to run forward along the road. I tried to stay in the center of the road with as little turning as possible. I then marked the time my stamina ran out and would place a butterfly wing on the ground to mark it. I would also time Stamina recovery time.

Character Details:
Level: 38
Stamina: 300
Heavy Armor: 47
Light Armor: 15

Results:
Standing Stone Sign: The Warrior
Carry Weight: 327 / 400
Daedric Set of Armor (Armor, Helm, Boots, Guantlets)
17 seconds of running until exhaustion
23 seconds for stamina to recover

Standing Stone Sign: The Warrior
Carry Weight: 327 / 400
Elven Set of Armor (Armor, Helm, Boots, Guantlets)
38 seconds of running until exhaustion
23 seconds for stamina to recover

Standing Stone Sign: The Warrior
Carry Weight: 327 / 400
Naked
43 seconds of running until exhaustion
23 seconds for stamina to recover

Standing Stone Sign: The Steed
Carry Weight: 236 / 500
Daedric Set of Armor (Armor, Helm, Boots, Guantlets)
43 seconds of running until exhaustion
23 seconds for stamina to recover


Conclusions:
1) As long as you are not over-encumbered, running speed remains constant regardless of armor worn. Naked is no faster than Elven and Elven is no faster than Daedric.

2) Stamina Recovery Speed is unaffected by Armor

3) Using The Steed standing stone produces the same effect as running naked regardless of armor worn insofar as stamina drain while running is concerned.

4) Daedric Armor at 81 lbs takes a huge stamina drain when running, a 60.47% drop in these tests with my 300 stamina character

5) Elven Armor at 7 lbs has a very minor effect on Stamina vs. Naked or Steed Stone at only an 11.63% drop.

Given these results, it is my opinion that Unhindered is fairly useless when using 7 lb Elven Armor as it only adds a 13.16% gain in running economy and a laughable 7 lb carry weight addition by negating the weight of the armor worn. Likewise, the only reason to pick The Steed is for the extra carry weight.

As such, I will only be spending two points in light armor, enough to reach the damage resistance cap and no more.

This 24 Perk Point base is looking pretty good right about now: http://chrizel.github.com/skyrim/#t/13/4w,0,m73im8,3c,-zik0zk,0,x,0

Going with light armor seems like a no brainer at this point. And I'll gladly take the 5% damage reduction by using Elven weaponry in order to save 4 perk points by not bothering getting to the Daedric part of the smithing tree. Only two points in Smithing, for all of the armor benefit at 8.6% of the weight with hardly any stamina penalty and possibly 95% of the weapon damage efficacy (unconfirmed for maxed out skills), how about that?

Speaking of which, anyone with 100 in One-Handed, 5/5 in Armsman, 100 Archery, and 5/5 in Overdraw care to give us any damage numbers for the superenchanted Elven Sword, Mace, and Bow vs. Daedric weapons of the same?

I know what you mean. Coming off of Dark Souls, this game is cake even when played as intended on masters.

I suppose it's a bit of a game to try to maximize your theoretical build, even if you don't need the half of it.

So no perk for upgrading enchanted? I read that without it enchanted items revert to base level. Is that not true?

I have the stat for swords and maces. No idea for bows. Didn't bother.

With 4x47% fortify one-handed enchantment, and improved at 246% blacksmith

Deadric sword: 518 damage (standard one handed standing power attack cost 72 stamina)
Elven sword: 492 damage (standard one handed standing power attack cost 66 stamina)

Deadric mace: 536 damage (standard one handed standing power attack cost 80 stamina)
Elven mace: 510 damage (standard one handed standing power attack cost 74 stamina)

Thank you. So, roughly 4.9% less damage between Daedric and Elven.

i really wonder if bethesda is gonna nerf anything of this. this cap [censored] they introduced again is such a big fail since it simply removes any use of high lvl armor mostly. well as soon as the ck comes out i will get rid of this cap nonsense forever atleast for me
since i think caps like this are stupid. albeit its funny you can reach the af cap with ELVEN armor i myself would never ever go without deadric because deadric just looks TOO badass to skip it

by the way did anybody else see that the deadric shield is not glowing red but in the loading screens it DOES? i also saw another vid on youtube where the eyes of the deadric helm where GLOWING slitgtly RED but on my armor nothing on the helmet glows at all. is this a texture bug?

i am in works of making a new character for the patch. since we dont know if beth is gonna nerf the hell out of some perks i dont plan on spending perks before next week tough. i am just leveling up my skills will be fun i think to actually play an level without perks at all^^. i except a nerf to the entchantment three tough because this three is currently just stupidly op. it makes over 5 other threes basisly worthless to invest in which is just too strong for ONE three. smithing and alchemy wont change much i think.

well if you are going heavy armour the conditioning perk is well worth it, I used steed stone until I could get it. you can sprint soooo much further with the reduced stamina drain and carry more stuff. plus you haven't tested if it effects sneak.

on the heavy vs light debate, its starting to look like light is better if you want to save perks. however all this perk stingyness I find interesting because I've never really been that short on perk points personally. and ebony armour is the coolest looking, and elven looks pretty gay imo.

Might be a dumb question but here goes: what exactly is the ideal way, playing a new character, should I progress naturally and power level the crafting (Alchemy, Enchanting, Smithing) at a certain level or should I go straight for profession power leveling? I assume focusing on the professions will gimp my character and make progression rather... hard. Right?

Ideal? There really isn't one. Get the first point in your preferred armor quickly, and focus on leveling your practical skills first. The crafting skills take time, and you are correct; powerleveling them will unbalance things a bit. That's not to say you shouldn't use them; just don't go stupid-crazy exploiting the IronDagger-Banish loop to powerlevel.

Edit: Nevermind. That was an offensive enchantment, not a defensive one. Carry on. Nothing to see here.

Where do I get them, because the only smithing potions I ever find are +15%, which wouldn't give +50

Great work, gabriel.

Now that we've slimmed down the required perks to 24, I'm suddenly having trouble deciding where to put them.

In One-Handed: 5/5 Armsman is a given, and since we're min/maxing, 3/3 Bonebreaker seems obvious too. What are your thoughts on Dual Flurry, Dual Savagery, and Fighting Stance? I worry about running out of Stamina dual-wielding, and I assume Dual Flurry aggravates the Stamina drain. Dual Savagery does the same, though indirectly, by buffing Power Attacks. If Stamina is an issue, is Fighting Stance a decent way to offset that?

I plan on taking 5/5 Overdraw to give myself a ranged option, but I won't be relying on Archery much. Would Eagle Eye + Steady Hand still be a good investment? It sounds fun, but unless it's particularly useful against certain types of opponents, I'll probably pass.

Unhindered seems pretty weak now, but I'm still tempted by Wind Walker. Can anyone with a high level dual-wielder comment on Stamina and whether it's a limitation in battle?

In Sneak, 1/5 in Stealth*, Backstab, and Deadly Aim are no-brainers, but I'm also leaning towards Muffled Movement to free up a boot slot for enchanting. I'd like to hear some opinions on Silence and Shadow Warrior; Lightfoot and Silent Roll are pretty weak, but the last two perks strike me as pretty valuable.

Nerevar earlier advocated sinking an extra two points into Alchemy for Snakeblood. Does anyone else agree 50% Poison Resistance is worth 2 points?

*the first point in Stealth grants a 20% boost, but points 2-5 only increase it by 5% each. Hard to pass on the first point, but I don't think I'd ever do more than that; even for a Sneaky character.