You can add Dunmer to the list then with their 50% fire resistance. Their racial once a day isn't great, but it does add a minor amount of damage. So you have the aesthetic choice between 3 "defensive" races.

For some reason, I had it in my head that they had 25% Fire Resistance instead of 50. Weird.

Just a few notes though.

If you use the dark brother hood ancient shroud glove (which cannot be improved as far as I can tell), you will not be able to hit the armor cap with just two points into light armor if you are only using elven set. You will get around 75% damage reduction, but not the full 80%.

With dragonscale and ancient shroud glove, you are like 4 armor point short of cap I think. So something like 79.5%

So again how many into smithing depending how far you are taking your character. If level 50 is max then elven is better. If you are planning to take the character all the way to 70 or the hard cap of 81. 4 extra perks IMO is worth it to squeeze out the last bit of damage out of your character, since at that stage you kind run out of good perks to put points into.

No idea about Bonebreaker vs the critical perk. But sword attacks a lot faster. So that's something to consider as well.

Would be interested to know if dual savagery and Savage strike stack with each other.

As for wind walker. I can run a lot without stopping. That got to be worth something right.

As for enchanting, personally, IMO getting one spell school to 0 or near 0 cost is wroth it. Grand healing on one hand is just so nice, since you can chase archer down while they shoot your face. The other one is illusion. Ability to spam invisibility with silent spell is pretty broken as well.

Not sure if this info has been posted anywhere as I haven't finished reading the thread but I was doing some testing in game using the following perks and equipment;

100 all skills

Alchemist: 5/5
Physician:1/1
Benefactor: 1/1
Enchanter: 5/5
Insightful Enchanter: 1/1

Circlet, Ring, Necklace and Gloves with +29% alchemy
Clothes, Gloves, Necklack and Ring with +29% smithing

+130% smithing potion

Then I saved my game, made a set of armor, got the relveant smithing perk and used the potion then upgraded the set and wrote down the armor shown. Here's my results:

Armor name = without shield / with shield

Heavy

Daedric Armor = 475/590
1/5 Juggernaut = 570/685

Dragonplate = 468/580
1/5 Juggernaut = 561/673
1/1 Well Fitted = 702/842

Ebony = 457/567
1/5 Juggernaut = 548/658
1/1 Well Fitted = 685/823

Orcish = 450/557
1/5 Juggernaut = 540/647
1/1 Well Fitted = 675/808

Steel Plate = 444/542
1/5 Juggernaut = 532/630
1/1 Well Fitted = 666/788

Dwarven = 433/534
1/5 Juggernaut = 519/620
1/1 Well Fitted = 649/775

Steel = 426/524
1/5 Juggernaut = 511/609
1/1 Well Fitted = 639/761

Iron = 258/321
1/5 Juggernaut = 309/372
1/1 Well Fitted = 387/465
2/5 Juggernaut = 451/530
3/5 Juggernaut = 516/594
4/5 Juggernaut = 580/659

Light

Dragonscale = 440/545
1/5 Agile Defender = 528/633
1/1 Custom Fit = 660/791

Glass = 429/532
1/5 Agile Defender = 514/617
1/1 custom Fit = 643/772

Scaled = 412
1/5 Agile Defender = 498
1/1 custom Fit = 618

Elven = 405/499
1/5 Agile Defender = 486/580
1/1 custom Fit = 607/725

Leather = 244
1/5 Agile Defender = 292
1/1 custom Fit = 366
1/1 Matching Set = 493
2/5 Agile Defender = 512
3/5 Agile Defender = 585


Perks required for armor (with perquires for armor+deadric weapons in parentheses):

Deadric = 6 (6)
Dragonplate = 8 (8)
Ebony = 6 (7)
Orcish = 5 (7)
Steel Plate = 5 (9)
Dwarven = 4 (7)
Steel = 3 (7)
Iron = 5 (10)

Dragonscale = 7 (8)
Glass = 6 (10)
Scaled = 5 (9)
Elven = 4 (8)
Leather = 5 (10)


Edit: I noticed throughout the thread people are talking about the Breton having 25% Magic Resist, but my Breton character has 50% Magic Resist. I googled it and other sites quote the 25% as well, what's up with that?

Breton has a passive Magick Resist of 25%, while that 50% which i think your mistaken, should be the racial ability Dragonskin which absorbs 50% of magicka from hostile spells for 60 seconds.

Did anyone test the armor cap + alteration dragonhide ? Does it work the same way as elemental resist + magic resist ???

If it worked the same way we could first negate 80% of the damage and then negeta 80% of that 20% thats get past the first resist dmg. That would reduce the dmg to only 4% of its initial value.

A 1000 dmg attack would do only 40 dmg.

In my Active Effects tab, I have an effect called "Resist Magic" with the description "Breton Blood grants a 50% resistance to magic."

This is seperate to "Dragonskin" in my powers tab.

how is this "setav (skillname) 100" supposed to work? I just tried with smithing but I dont get the effects? still grinds basic iron dagger to fine after using the command

Tested. Dragonhide simply brings you to the armour cap, ie it does not stack. The short duration and tendency to get interrupted if you attempt to recast in the middle of a fight makes it very much meaningless.

Stacking for zero cost healing will actually perform better. You may take a hit in damage without dual wield, but with one hand holding Heal or Grand Heal, you are literally unkillable.

For stamina problems, use absorb stamina enchantments on weapons. You can power attack even if you have only 1 stamina. If you have huge magic/frost resist, you can even lower the absorb rate from 29 to 5 or something and extend your weapon charges. Note that soul net effects should be at least 3 seconds because finishers sometimes mess it up.

Finally, the best shout is slow time, you can just sprint over and destroy EVERYTHING before it/they can even move.

Sorry guys. I'm afk a bit for the next day or two; I'm actually going to play the game. I'll try to do a summary response post when I get back.

Summary of the current discussion, as I understand it:

• It is possible to further optimize the Template down to low 20's for perk costs.
  
• I still cannot recreate the numbers seem in the '600 smithing skill' chart the non-UESP wiki. I would continue to assume them bogus until we build our own chart.
  
• To my knowledge, Bethesda does not have a history of patching in-game mechanics in the open world games. I don't expect nerfs; only bug fixes.
  
• Light Armor is superior for end-game play, but it makes the mid-game difficult. Recommendations: temporary Light Armor enchants, or Wolf Armor.
  
• Axes Bleed is useful if you're not hitting for ridiculous numbers, but this Template tends to create one-hit kills. YMMV.
  
• If you're going to use Block, don't spend perks in the tree, unless you want Elemental Protection.
  
• Chillrend and Mehrunes' Razor seems to be the only superior unique weapons in game.
  
• Nord Hero weapons are lighter than Elven weapons, and have comparable damage.
  
• Nord and Dunmer, as races, may be comparable to Breton, if you plan to max out Elemental Resistance
  
• Domilasa http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1279078-2419-armor-6399-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-33-perks-329k-backstabs-post-3/page__view__findpost__p__19443428 that we can reach the armor cap using any armor.

Seeing as we're approaching 200 posts again, I'll see about updating my summary, and starting a new thread when this one locks.

Catch you guys on the flip side.

Added this to the first page Cheshyr and made a new post so people who bookmarked this thread can find the next one after it locks. I've been super busy, so if you want to make post 5... let me know and I will link from the first page of 4 to it.

Thanks,
Jerich

• There is no fortify enchanting enchant. Only potions.
  
• Dark brotherhood quest: "mourning never comes". If optional part completed gives: Muiri's Ring (Fortify Alchemy)
  
• Morkarth quest: "no one escapes chidhna mine". If you select revenge dialogue and kill madanach then complete quest gives: Silver-Blood Family Ring (Fortify Smithing)

If this could be added to OP would be helpful plus maybe I could get some minor credit ;D

Don't forget maces are slower. For 2h sword defo wins since 2h mace is alot slower, seems to use alot more stamina and also possibly has less reach. (reach is important for my 2h multiple foe hitting side swings

What!? No numbers on Fur Armor??? >:| (j/k )

So in summary, to hit the armor cap with the crafting skills you need a minimum of 16 perks (Alchemy 7, Enchanting 6, Smithing 1, Heavy Armor 2); but you need two more in Enchanting to maximize magic protection (and generally give you awesome enchanting flexibility) for a total of 18.
[Note that if the Dwarven +25% Armor quest-benefit ever starts working, you could do the same with Smithing 2, Heavy Armor 1. I know a Dwemer-fan who will be pleased with this.]

For that minimum in perks, Dwarven Armor weighs 78, Steel Armor weighs 52, and Wolf Armor weighs 32.


The base perks to hit passive armor and magic maxima while using Best Weapons would be 21 (Alchemy 7, Enchanting 8, Smithing 5, Heavy Armor 1).
[Note that you can also get there by going Smithing 4, Heavy Armor 2, and using Ebony Mace instead of Daedric Mace, but I'm expecting that's a lookup-table typo and the base-damage for Ebony Mace will be patched to one less than Daedric like all the other Ebony weapon types.]


With 22 perks, you get the freedom to wear Daedric, Ebony, Orcish, Dwarven, or Steel with best weapons.


The lightest weight armor would be Elven at 7 inventory capacity with a cost of 19 perks for maximal protection or 23 for addition of best-weapons. (But you still look like you're trying to hide between your own shoulders while wearing a metallic chicken-suit...)


Opting for weapons-available with minimal perks (18-19) at max-ed protection will mean ~5% reduction in damage output using Elven, Nord Hero, or Skyforge Steel weapons; or slightly greater damage loss using Dwarven.


-----------


Since this is a feast day and there's much carping about leveling Alchemy, I'll save everyone the trouble of experimenting with Ingredients rather than gorging on turkey and potatoes today. After all, I wouldn't want you to have to taste-test to discover that Human Flesh + Moon Sugar + Troll Fat gives a Damage Health/Restore Magika potion (why am I even carrying those things around, let alone mixing them together o.O?)


The first four play-areas in the game are Helgen Keep in the tutorial, Embershard Mine just southwest of Riverwood, Bleak Falls Barrow north of Riverwood, and Brittleshin Pass (contains an Enchanting table) northwest of Riverwood/west of Bleak Falls Barrow. If you just pick up the ingredients found in those dungeons you should have large quantities of: Bone Meal, Glowing Mushroom, Fly Amanita, Salt Pile, Skeever Tail, and Spider Egg.


Using that stock and things you pick up walking between areas or buy relatively cheaply at stores you can make:

Spider Egg + Canis Root + Bear Claws *or* Hanging Moss --> Fortify One-Handed / Damage Stamina / Damage Magicka Regen / Fortify Marksman

Skeever Tail + Honeycomb + Silverside Perch --> Restore Stamina / Damage Stamina Regen / Ravage Health / Fortify Light Armor

Salt Pile + Deathbell + Small Antlers --> Slow / Weakness to Poison / Fortify Restoration / Damage Health

Fly Amanita + Dragon's Tongue (flower) + Mora Tapinella *or* Scaly Pholiota --> Fortify Illusion / Resist Fire / Fortify Two-handed / Regenerate Stamina
(Why the only one in this list that *isn't* partially poisonous in-game is also the one that's based on real-life kill-you-dead mushrooms I don't know =P.)

Glowing Mushroom + Hanging Moss + Glow Dust (expensive!) --> Resist Shock / Fortify Destruction / Damage Magicka / Fortify Health / Damage Magicka Regen

-or-

Glowing Mushroom + Wheat + Swamp Fungal Pod --> Restore Health / Lingering Damage Magicka / Resist Shock / Fortify Health

-or-

Glowing Mushroom + Pine Thrush Egg + Sabre Cat Tooth --> Restore Stamina / Weakness to Poison / Resist Shock / Fortify Smithing
(Look! Useable for Crafting! =D So long as you don't poison yourself in the meantime...)


Using those recipes, you don't have to "grind" Alchemy, you can just play and gain Alchemy skill points between missions when you dump your stuff in town and do another round of dagger/bracer crafting. You also don't end up with a stock of 200 potions at once that you can't sell anywhere. Play like you normally would and just add five minutes between missions to sort out your Alchemy ingredients and your Alchemy should keep pace with your Smithing.

But Human Being, what about the Bone Meal?

What? Bone Meal? You mean the Ingredient you find in virtually every barrow, tomb, prison, torture chamber, and laboratory? Like over half game? Ah yes...

Here on Thanksgiving I give you this gift:

Bone Meal + Blue Butterfly Wing + Snowberries --> Damage Stamina / Resist Fire / Fortify Conjuration / Fortify Enchanting

This is the recipe that keeps on giving. You can find Bone Meal in what feels like more than half the dungeons of the game. Snowberries can be picked off the ground anywhere that it's cold. Blue Butterfly Wing can be found anywhere there are flowers growing in the day. If one of those latter two isn't in the area, the other should be. And you can find both of them literally within fifty feet of each other when you exit Helgen Keep from the tutorial. Anywhere you are short on one, you should be able to find it cheaply in stores. Finally, it can also be used in the work on your other two crafting skill sets if you don't want to sell it. Bone Meal + Blue Butterfly Wing + Snowberries; it is the Alchemy training wonder-potion.

Wow Human Being, you sure have done a lot of experimenting with Alchemy Ingredients.

What? Oh, heck no! I used iamnoah's handy http://skyrim.iamnoah.com/. Took me like twenty minutes to figure out best-value/easiest-to-acquire recipes with that. And none of the above includes the various colors of Mountain Flower you find in the Riverwood valley or the Elves Ear and Garlic you can find hanging in your own house...


Now, will everyone quit &%$@#-ing about training Alchemy ?


------------


Since others have had trouble wrapping their head around Alchemy and in light of the above quad-effect list, I should probably explicitly point out some of the implications of DieBySword's Dragon-zapper experiments which may not be immediately obvious. If multiple applications of the same debuff stack so long as they are accompanied with an additional effect, then the total number of debuffs you can create for Destruction damage is....vast. You can create potions with up to six effects, so you should be able to make multiple potions that stack the same effect from same first-ingredient. Then add in that you can do the same thing for each Ingredient that shares the same property. You'd have to subtract duplicate potions and ones with redundant effects (like Resist Frost / Weakness to Frost potions or Weakness to Magic / Fortify Health / Restore Health / Raise From Dead / Create Unicorn potions), but in principle the total number of potential debuffs is going to be a factor of the number of Ingredients that share that property.

Weakness to Magic has 8 different Ingredients with that property.
Weakness to Shock has 4.
Weakness to Frost has 5.
Weakness to Fire has 6.

I'll leave it to someone who actually *enjoys* factorial math and wants to wade through all the possible permutations, but I think it's safe to say that you could debuff an Ancient Dragon into exploding from a warm match-stick.

But Human Being, DieBySword already had to use two arrows to apply his previous debuffs. Even if you could debuff a target into taking tens of thousands of points of damage you'd have killed it with arrows by that point and it would take minutes to set up!

What are these arrows you speak of??

Pickpocket to lv40, 3 Perks to the Poisoned Perk that lets you add poisons to enemy inventory for effect > Spell/Potion of Invisibility or high Sneak > Run up to Ancient Dragon, crouch, Pickpocket, and add as many different debuffing potions as you want at once > detonate Dragon with Destruction spell of your choice. Bonus points for using Apprentice or Novice spells for insult value.

But, but Human Being! Dragons don't have pockets. How can that work?

Of course not. That's why this application comes as a suppository .


Technically, this probably returns Destruction magic, and Fire in particular, to the top of the "goes to 11" damage heap, but it's in fairly contrived circumstances, you have to get into melee range anyway, and as has been said several times already: you can only one-shot something so hard...


I'm going to get back to making molasses-bread now. Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.

Well I actually found a cheap way of killing dragons A bow enchanted with paralize for x seconds could add slow for x seconds to that too.

Once you hit it with an arrow its drops down to the ground and is 100% slow from the first poison. Then you apply the second and third poison while the dragon gets a reset on the paralize every hit. Then you use a double thunderbolt and go away

If you dont want to much hastle just drink the dmg pot, shoot one 100% WM or 97% Weakness to arrow into the dragon and cast lightning storm for 5 seconds - Dragon is dead

Wouldn't it be even faster and just as cheap if you just shot dragon twice with your bow? Dragon is dead, no need to play with potions or poisons.

My preferred and most optimal build imo is currently: either elven armor with nord hero weapons or glass armor with Chillrend and shield (+1 perk, you gain highest 1h damage and maxed armor with only 1 point in LA)

Sorry, the full command is "player.setav (skillname) 100" without quotes and brackets of skillname.

Assuming it's a simple shot (no hidden bonus damage) is it possible to 1-2 shot a dragon? I was under the impression that archery was the dps build lagging behind everything else (in this template of Smith/Alch/Enchant).

Hi, I've been lurking on this forum and thread for a while and decided to register and post.
http://www.ign.com/builds/the-elder-scrolls-5-skyrim?d=0000000000000000000000000000000100010110000000000000000000001110000000001010101103500011100110000111100000000000000000000000000500000300050000000051110101111111011111111
Is the build I'm currently considering. I realize light armor may need more perks to get elven to the cap(as well as elven plus backstab gloves from dark brotherhood) however I'm unsure of how many(help would be greatly appreciated). This build aims to get 4 maxed out characters(character, follower, and two reanimated followers(you can put things in their dead body before reanimating them). It has max one handed mace damage, high(not maxed) bow damage for long range, and maxed sneak attacks. It can cast the thralls by reducing the cost to 0 in different gear. Normally one of the enchants should be reduce restoration cost 100% so you can cast grand healing(which also affects your allies) for free. Any suggestions and thanks everyone for making this thread for people like me who were unaware of the synergy.

Is it possible for mix armor or even magician cloth apparel reach the armor rating cap?

My character only uses 3 pieces Daedric to hit armor cap (no helm or shield). I don't think it'll work if you try to use robes, however, since the main armor piece has the biggest impact on your armor rating.

So i have the problem of my fortify alchemy enchant being only 20%.

I read in the last thread that patching the PC version fixes this, but im on 360, how can i fix this?

Really disappointing to find this bug when vie gotten all these skills to 100.

I don't know. Is it possible for you to reinstall on the 360? Patching and Reinstalling are the only 2 ways I've seen this fixed.

I never install games onto my 360, so no. Also, ive heard people who have installed it have had some major bugs.

EDIT: checked the tech forums and im serverely disappointed.

Spent all that time upgrading all those skills to 100 (going up 15 levels in the process) just to find out i cant do it.

Wonder how much worse it would be to make it starting with 20% enchants.

I believe you end up with a max 28% instead of max 32% on your Alchemy, and similarly reduced stats in Enchanting and Smithing. Someone else posted about it earlier in the thread, with eact numbers.

While you can't use our exact reduced-perk armor builds, you should still easily reach the armor cap, and still do overwhelming damage. Losing 12% of 500 damage is still a 437 damage... not exactly a weak attack.

Yea i did the math after i posted. Suppose if i don't find a fix by tomorrow afternoon ill just settle for that, i was doing it for the hell of it anyways. Wasn't gonna play on master.