from first post:

- There is a quest chain, Unfathomable Depths that gives you a perk that gives you +25% armor in dwarven armor and makes smithing increase 15% faster. You can get it once you are level 15 from an argonian named From-Deepest-Fathoms


this buff seems to be bugged currently and not giving any bonuses at all which is kinda odd. havent tested the smithing increase speed yet but the +25% armor bonus is NOT working even when wearing full dwarven armor with a shield.

There ya go. Two points in Smithing for me then. . .

I didn't even ask for stamina numbers, but those are great.

Thanks, Dimeron!

Another question for anyone. Has anyone worked out the Mace Armor Ignore vs. Sword Critical math? I head someone did, but I can't find anything definitive. I'm going to assume that the Axe bleed is crap since it appears to be a static amount of low damage whereas armor ignore and critical modify our awesome damage numbers.

It does at first look but I've had second thoughts; it doesn't work on mages or animals and most mobs have minor armor. It's only useful against a very few high end enemies. Bladesman works for everything and you get the most of it for just one perk.

BTW OP, have you considered adding the double one handed sneak attack multipliers to your calculations for the back stabs? We all know what it does, but i still think seeing 65k backstab, is quite an impressive number...

If a Bladesman crit = double damage, then 3/3 basically equates to a 30% universal damage boost. Bonebreaker's effectiveness obviously depends on how well-armored your target is. If they've got more than 40% physical mitigation, Bonebreaker wins; if they're got less than 40%, Bladesman wins. Total speculation there, as I can't test it, but I'd bet that the breaking point for those two perks is around 40% physical mitigation on your target.

How many high-level enemies will have more than 40% physical mitigation?

Exactly the point and I'm not sure. Up to level 19 or so I don't think I've seen any; not mages and dragon priests or dragons; not giants, trolls, sabre cats or bears. It sounds like one of those things that sound good in theory but have little practical application.

Whisk3yjack, I'm in the same boat with a lot of these. I'm not that familiar with the Mace vs. Sword math. Intuitively, it seems like Bonebreaker is better, but then you get into the creatures don't use armor issue (though people and mages do - oakflesh, etc.). The official strategy guide says that Bladesman works out to an overall average 5% boost in damage at Rank 1, and a 15% boost at rank 3. That's not much for three stat points for sure. The biggest merit I can think of would be that it increases the amount of damage for each critical, which then might be useful when used in conjunction with Critical Charge.

The Strategy guide says that Critical Charge requires a critical to work, but for me this doesn't appear to be the case. If I hit them with the charge it is a double damage critical 100% of the time, making this an awesome skill, especially when this charging opener will OHKO most opponents with our crazy damage.

I have Dual Flurry, but I didn't really test how much faster it seems. Savage Strike and Dual Savagery stack (and maybe Dual Flurry), or so I've read but not tested scientifically, making for a withering standing power attack.

I haven't used a bow much, so I can't comment though would be eager to hear people's opinions on Eagle Eye, Steady Hand, Power Shot, Quick Shot, etc.

My character has 300 stamina and since he does so much dang damage, stamina is not much of an issue since everything dies so dang quick. I also have fighting stance, BTW. Also, respite in restoration means that healing restores stamina too, which may be enough during those one or two dragon battles when they might actually take more than two hits. I'm getting Respite just so that I can run FOREVER. I think that it is a better use of a stat point than two for Wind Walker. What stamina numbers are other finding is the sweet spot?

More than one point in Stealth does seem silly, especially when you can have a spare set of armor that weighs 2.8 pounds (Elven Gloves, Elven Boots, Ring, Amulet) and adds 47% X 4 to your stealth. I too am curious about the other sneak skills, particularly Silence and Shadow Warrior.

I'll add to these questions, does anyone else have Perfect Touch & Misdirection? Besides the novelty of stripping down NPCs, does anyone have anything useful, or is it just extra stuff to fence? I'm really only interested if it amounts to something more than gold in the end as I seem to have limitless amounts of coin anyway.

How about blocking? I didn't go down that tree at all as I am mostly duel wielding. Any value there?

The blocking tree is all about power bash. the perks don't seem to affect basic blocking at all (based on my personal experience confirmed by the "numbers" thread)
The arrow block adds very little and the magic block only works if you have you shield up before the spell hits. blocking works pretty well but you don't need any perks if you don't care about power bash. I took 5 blocking perks on my last character and decided to re-roll after realizing how marginal (almost gimping) they were.

That makes sense. Doing so much damage, I assume that whoever we are fighting will die to fast to really necessitate us turtleing anyway. I heard good things about the Block, Quick Reflexes, Shield Bash combo. That is, you block till they do a power attack then you shield bash them in the face. That said, I'll be skipping the tree as you did with your new character.

How does unique weapons compare to elven and daedric? For example Chillrend, Mace of Molag Bal or Volendrung? Do they get benefits from enchanting perks or is Arcane Blacksmith mostly waste of perk?

That makes sense. Bladesman crits are 150% normal damage, whereas Critical Charge crits are "double" because it grants twice the bonus damage (200% v. 150%). In that case, opponents only need 20% physical mitigation or greater for Bonebreaker to beat Bladesman, with Bonebreaker becoming dramatically better against heavily armored opponents. I'm definitely leaning towards Bonebreaker.


That's odd. The wording of the perks doesn't imply any dependence between the two. I'll probably be taking Critical Charge, but with Bonebreaker instead of Bladesman.


Good to know. Sounds like a single Fortify Stamina Regen enchant should be enough, and even that might not be necessary.

I definitely plan on taking Respite, and have been playing with the idea of Fortify Resto on my Helm and Chest; half-mana cost on spells that replenish both Health and Stamina is very attractive.


I'll second fragonard on Blocking perks. Initial testing indicates the tree provides very questionable value; assuming you're already armor capped, you can achieve virtually the same mitigation with Hide Shield.

To answer my own question, unique weapons are outclassed by non-unique easily. It seems that best and least skill intensive weapons are elven (2 perks) and nord hero (1 perk and even lighter than elven). dwarwen would also be good if +25% perk actually did anything.

EDIT: It seems you can actually improve Chillrend making it effectively highest damage 1H sword and only after daedric and ebony maces in 1H category but it's a shame other unique weapons don't benefit from smithing perk

You mentioned Nord Hero weapons. These are the types of things I am not even considering. Is there any other armor for which a smithing perk applies that is as light or close to Elven it but only requires a single point in Steel?

Random notes: I took a Breton base character right after being freed of your bonds in opening. Used advskill to level up. With 100 ench and 100 smith = 25th level, add 40 sneak = 26th, add archer or one handed 50 =28th level, with both weap skills at 50 = 29th level (note: didn't have enough perks to get everything i wanted at this point but I probably wasted points in Alchemy and maybe Restoration since I wasn't at the skill thresholds to do what I want with those skills here.) at 50 alchemy level 31. added light armor 50 = level 32 and still lacking perks overall.

Are there other threads discussing leveling progression? This experiment was inspired specifically with getting the max, main-crafting skills (alchemy really does add a ton, but in my limited experiences it has been harder to use for a direct and consistent power up like smithing and enchanting especially since you can buy some smith/enchant potions.)

I was wondering if anyone found a good way to get fortify alchemy or fortify enchanting items to disenchant. I tried waiting 48 hours in front of some mages guild guys and in front of warmaidens about 15 times, but I wasn't able to find any equipment I needed.

I have a quick but very important question. Could I get to the armor cap if I had 0 enchant perks, 0 alchemy perks, but the 5 smithing perks for (light) dragon armor? Isn't the armor cap around 600?

Wolf Armor from the Skyforge counts as steel. A four-piece set has a base armor rating of 72 and total weight of 32; versus Elven base rating of 64 (Gilded version) and weight of 7. If I'm following your math correctly, then just one (1) perk in the Heavy Armor tree should give a displayed armor rating of 559; eight short of the 567 cap with about 1% damage mitigation lacking.

It has already been pointed out up the page that the two perk points leading to Wind Walker could better be spent on Restoration's Respite. Stamina regeneration is all well and good, but from my observations, neither Magika nor Stamina recover at all while being used. If you're interested in sprinting for the maximum time, then a way to instantly replenish Stamina is superior to extending time to exhaustion and shortening the refractory period. The same holds true if you want to do power attack after power attack. The Light Armor tree may be better than the Heavy Armor tree, but that's not a strong endorsemant. That perk is not a reason to choose Light Armor over Heavy.

Furthermore, you can buy Wolf Armor outright in the early game rather than scrounging for Moonstone and Quicksilver. The higher base armor rating is also a benefit for survival in the early game.

Wolf armor Helmet, Gauntlets, and Boots weigh 4 each. That's heavier than the 1 of Elven, but still leaves a "modular" approach to equipping enchanted-armor a viable option.

You get 1-2 more perk slots, easier access in the early game, and better protection while leveling up for a total weight increase of 25.

But finally and most importantly: Wolf Armor doesn't make you look like you're hunching your shoulders in embarrassment while waiting to go on stage at Elton John's Liberace-memorial concert =P.


I haven't messed with Nord Hero weapons or Skyforge Steel ones as I'm mostly spell-slinging, but I'm curious to see if they are much more behind Daedric than Elven's 5%.

This is good stuff.

The stamina drain while running would be somewhat more than Elven but substantially less than Daedric. And you're right that all the weight is in the chest piece, which is actually the one piece that I usually don't have alternates for.

Regular steel seems to do about 10% less damage than Daedric. This is fine by me. We do enough damage anyway. I'd be very curious about Skyforge and Nord Hero weapons.

The biggest argument for Elven would then the fact that the armor weight means that Unhindered (or Unhindered minus 11.6%) is basically built in, the more modular nature of having a 1+1+1+4 lb set, and the larger weapon damage compared to regular steel (though we don't know about Skyforge or Nordic Hero yet).

Plus, as you say, we save two perk points, bringing our base down to 22: http://chrizel.github.com/skyrim/#t/8/4w,0,m73im8,pbs,-zik0zk,0,0,0

Also, I agree with you about Respite and stamina recovery.

Good post.

I don't have the ability, so I can't test, but does the Wolf Armor also allow you to improve weapons? You can craft some awesome defensive tools easily due to the cap, but it seems that damage is unlimited. So you want to be able to make weapons that go to 11. I don't know anything about the Skyforged nor Nord Hero (how do you qualify for that, btw?) smithed weapons. How do they scale against Elven and Daedric weapons?

Edit: Also, since some of my program's calculations seem to be different from what I've seen in this thread. If you max Smith/Enchant/Alchemy and then create the item with the highest reduction to spell casting cost (for example, I've read that a 100 Enchant can get you an item that causes 2 schools to cost 25% less. But surely an Alchemical boost will change that.) So what's the top end of Alchemy boosted Enchanting for magic school reduction? Can you get to 0 with 3 items?

It seems like this thread need its own forum. So we can narrow down specific things like caster efficiency vs melee efficiency vs archer efficiency along with armor, magic, and elemental resists.

The UESP says base damage of Elven equals that of Scimitars, Nord hero and Skyforged. You get 1 skyforge weapon during the companions questline and I think Eorlund Greymane sells them. Nord hero weapons can be crafted from ancient weapons (the things most Draugr drop) after completing the Companions questline and only at the Skyforge. Now if Wolf armour offers sufficient protection and people can live with using Elven weapons instead of Daedric, you would only need steel smithing perk.


But this whole problem arises due to the whole interaction between enchanting, smithing and alchemy. Whether this is intentional or not, in my opinion it's bad design.

Here's what the situation would be if this whole thing didn't exist assuming the UESP is correct in their formula.

Displayed damage = (base damage + smithing upgrade)*(1+0.4*skill/100)*(1+perk % damage boosts)*(1+% damage from items).
Smithing at legendary adds 10 points to the base damage for weapons.
Assuming 100 skill, 125% increase from perks and 100% from gear we get the following situation.

Skyforge: (11+10)*(1+0.4*100/100)*(1+125%)*(1+100%) = 132,3
Elven: (11+10)*(1+0.4*100/100)*(1+125%)*(1+100%) = 132.3
Daerdric: (14+10)*(1+0.4*100/100)*(1+125%)*(1+100%) = 151.2

And now the difference between Elven and Daerdric is 12.5% which is a lot higher than the 5% difference you have with stacking enchants and potions.

A Daedric Sword has a base damage rating of 14.

A Steel Sword has a base damage rating of 8.

Elven, Nord Hero, and Skyforge Steel Swords all have a base damage rating of 11. Nominally, they should be the same; but I wouldn't completely trust that until someone checks in-game.

An Elven Sword weighs 13, a Nord Hero one weighs 9, and a Skyforge Steel one weighs 10.




Thanks, and that reminds me: on a separate note I've seen several people champion the Breton as the best choice for ultimate, consistent protection because they save 1 enchanting slot for passive magic protection due to 25% inherent Magic Resistance. With the 15% Magic Resistance from the Mara benefit, they need two Magic Resistance enchanting slots and two each of Fire, Frost, and Shock to reach 2.25% minimum magic damage.

In those terms though, the Breton is actually interchangeable with the Nord: three magic resistance slots, two Fire, two Shock, and one Frost for 2.4% minimum magic damage. (If someone tries to hold up that 0.15% difference in magic damage as significant in aggregate gameplay, I will laugh at you. =D)

There isn't a huge starting skill difference in terms of this thread's minimum-framework either (+5 Smithing versus +5 Alchemy).

An argument could even be made that the usefulness of the Nord's fear effect is less situational than a Breton's magic-absorption.

If you want that consistent protection level as opposed to the "peaky" Orc, you can pick your poison between combat-leaning Nord and magic-leaning Breton.

Just a heads-up: If you take a Breton with no skills at intro, and give him 100 Smith, 100 Enchant, and 100 alchemy he will be 31st level and just a small amount away from 32nd.

Alternatively, you can use the console and type "setav alchemy 100" without quotation marks, without messing with the level gaining.

I am waiting for Beth to roll out the patch after Thanksgiving Day. See what changes are being implemented and whether this template will be of any use after the patch, and rerolling a new character. Done with the game for now.

Also, happy Thanksgiving Day to the Americans.

That's easy =D. Melee does the most damage, able to one-shot many enemies even from level 1 - but they have to spend the time to travel across the room and actually "shot" everyone "once" while exposing themselves to the most attacks. Casters are the lords of AoE - whether in absolute terms of setting the whole room on fire with a couple spells from the doorway or more granularly with 3+ nigh-indestructible pets. Archery/Backstabbing is the realm of more methodical sniping; slower but arguably safer in absolute terms when pulled off and requiring its own mini-game. I think Bethesda has actually put together a rather solid framework where each play-approach can actually stand on its own without one blowing the others away.

As to protections, you can just play along and follow an obvious upgrade path in armors, or you can drill down into the mechanics and find that you can reach the same point with whatever aesthetics you prefer.

You can quibble about their mechanical design, but from over here it looks pretty functional if not precisely elegant. I don't think they spent three years for nothin'.