double post... was supposed to be an edit.

Alright, now all said and done, here's my character planned:

http://skyrimcalculator.com/#4305
For level 43


Enchanted items will be as follows:
Chest: Dragonscale armor (legendary)
Enchant1: Fortify Restoration & Magicka (forgot the exact stat with all the fortify enchant potions),
Enchant2: Fortify Restoration (29% reduced spell cost)

Helm: Dragonscale helm (legendary)
Enchant1: Fortify Restoration (29% reduced spell cost)
Enchant2: Fortify Magicka or Fortify Arhcery or Fortify second spell school

Hand: Dragonscale Gaunelet (legendary)
Enchant1: Fortify One-Handed
Enchant2: Fortify Sneak or Fortify Carry weight

Boots: Dragonscale boots( legendary)
Enchant1: Fortify One-Handed
Enchant2: Fortify Stamina or Fortify Sneak or Muffle

Ring: Silver ring
Enchant1: Fortify one-handed
Enchant2: Fortify Restoration

Amulet: Silver necklace
Enchant1: Fortify one-handed
Enchant2: Resist Magic

Sign: Atronach

With this I will have
-Capped out armor
-All restoration spells cost 0 magicka
-518 damage Deadric sword
-83% magic resist (25% breton racial + 15% agent of mara + 20% alteration perk + 23% from the ring).
-80% spell absorption, with the ability to become 100% spell absorb 60 seconds a day.

left hand: Grand healing(300 health and stamina per pop)
Right hand: Deadric sword


Possible Future paths:

Level 56
http://skyrimcalculator.com/#4317

Basically max out the sneak tree, and get fortify sneak on boots. Swap out the Dragonsacale Gauntlet with the 2x sneak gloves.

Level 60
http://skyrimcalculator.com/#4319

Get silent casting. Will probably change enchant 2 on the Dragonscale helm to fortify illusion

Although at this point sneak is probably not needed. So might go with conjuration or something and have 2 atronch follow me.

Sounds like we need to figure out the optimal combination of perks, standing stone, and enchants.

The Lord and Steed Stones are by far the most useful (an argument can probably be made for Lady and Atronach as well, but I'll leave that to others). Using the Steed Stone negates the need for Unhindered/ Conditioning, but you then have to dedicate an extra enchanting slot to magic resistance to make up for the loss of the Lord Stone. Conversely, the Lord Stone requires Unhindered/ Conditioning, but opens up a enchanting slot.

I'm inclined to argue that perk points are more valuable than enchanting slots, which supports the Steed Stone; but if a talent like Wind Walker is valuable enough on its own, then the cost of Unhindered is negligible. I'm leaning towards Lord Stone/ Unhindered + Wind Walker, personally, but I may be undervaluing enchanting slots. Would be interested to hear other opinions on this.

Atronach is the best stone though IMO. 50% spell absorption is not something to be snickered at, especially since the most dangerous opponents tends to be casters (and archers, but you can dodge arrows, lightning, not so much).

Also, IMO heavy armor is pretty pointless, light armor with 10% dodge is definitely the best. Since you need the dodge, might as well get unhindered.

@gabriel_eliot

What's the argument for Elven over Dragonscale Armor? I know it weighs a little less, but if one is already planning on taking Unhindered for Wind Walker, then it really doesn't matter.

I suppose it would make the early and mid game easier as you would be running around in crafted/ improved Elven armor, instead of mundanely improved/ found Elven armor. My main concern here is aesthetics; I don't much care for the Elven armor graphic, so I'd prefer that not be my end-game set.

I can hit the armor cap with dragonscale with just one point into agile defender (and fortify smithing potion/items). Can you do the same with Elven? If you can then I admit there is no difference except cosmetic.

While I enjoy optimization problems like this, I think it's going to boil down to personal preference at this point. The Template calls for a minimum of 21 perks to hit Armor Cap. After that, it really depends on how you approach Magic Resist, and if you care about those last few percent of damage making it through.

Steed Stone can save you 1 or 3 perks, depending on if you want Light or Heavy armor, and if you want Windwalker and/or Deft Movement.
Lord Stone can save you 4-5 perks or 1 enchantment slot. Extra Effects gives us so many enchantment slots, I tend to think the perks are worth more.
Atronach Stone is great, and stacked with the high Alteration Atronach perk, you get 80% absorption for 5 perks.

Elven Armor is the lightest Armor you can own that hits the Armor cap with low perk investment, which is why Gabriel was using it in his example, I believe.

Personally, I do not favor random chance protections, so I ignore Spell Absorption and Deft Movement entirely. Windwalker is a lot of perks for a boost you can enchant in your spare slots or get as a potion, and that will be mostly unused with my expected damage output. For my character, I was ok with reaching the Armor Cap, 81% Magic Resist and 77% Elemental Resist. If that last 4% magic damage kills me, I was doing something wrong anyway. Likewise, if you stack Armor and Shield damage reduction, you end up with similarly low %'s of physical damage getting through. I'd rather put my time and effort into the more entertaining perks.

So I was looking at the Skyrim wiki and it says the armor rating cap is 567 which equals 80% damage reduction, so all this is pretty much useless lol, don't waste your mats.

Does the reflect damage effect work differently this time around? In Oblivion reflect damage negated the damage as well. This meant that 100% reflect damage meant complete immunity to physical melee attacks. Unfortunately, it didn't work on ranged. In any case, does the heavy armor perk simply return damage without negating it?

Way to skip over 500 posts worth of useful information... nevermind that we also refined and summerized the numbers from the title in the first 3 posts in this thread. Troll Fail.

Reflection does not negate the damage; it only returns it. If you want to survive the damage, you need damage reduction as well.

Ahh...that's a pity. I guess heavy armor really has nothing going for it beyond the 50% stagger since enemies don't even use the mace perk.

Honestly, I'm not finding anything in any of the Armor trees worth the perks. I've spent 2 perks in Heavy Armor, just to get Fists of Steel, and that's it. I go toe-to-toe with dragons using my fists, with only a single armor+ perk. In a way, I'm relieved. It frees me up to play with other perks that have unusual effects. It'd be pretty frustrating if the ONLY way to survive end-game was to have 5-7 perks in an Armor tree.

So, looking at this wiki page - http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Smithing it lists that it's possible to have Smithing skill at over 600? I didn't really see any mention of this in this thread, in regard to the weapon upgrading.

In addition, it doesn't seem to make any sense. The fortify enchantments seem to give a +% of improvement to items, and not actually give skill points. Can someone reconcile this for me?

I am fairly certain the majority of that chart is... erroneous. Unfortunately, that means I need to flesh out the entire chart myself to get the right answer. I'll get back to you when I have it finished.

What I do know for a fact is that with 100 Heavy Armor, 100 Smithing with +246% Improvement allows you to take Daedric Boots from 26 to 90 and Daedric Boots from 69 to 198. I also know that using the Notched Pickaxe enchantment to boost your Smithing Skill doesn't change these improvement stats at all. This is why I believe the chart is incorrect.

The equation that governs the +246% Improvement stat is still poorly understood.

Come on, deep down you know you enjoy it!

Of course I do; otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. I will admit to a bit of rage at some of the questions and misinformation that comes through here though.

just got alchemy to 100. It does not take 10x longer, it takes no longer then smithing, and is perhaps faster then enchanting... the ingredients are so much more abundant then soul gems, and iron ore for that matter. Trick is to simply stumble upon the expensive items that level up the skill fast. Also wearing alchemy clothing, getting a good nights sleep, activating the thief stone, and putting a perk point into the base skill as soon as available.. 40, 60, and 80. . If you gather ingredients from the start and store them you should be good to go. It didn't take all that long to gather what was needed though. The trick was using the most abundant items together then trying out rarer items until one stumbled upon an expensive potion. Unfortunately I wasn't keeping track of what I was using as I was leveling or I'd post that information here. I had travelled all over so I had quite a diverse variety. The most obvious one is blue butterfly wing, blue mountain flower, and salt piles, all abundant in the game. Get 200 of each and you'll be up there pretty high already.

Riften in particular was high in salt piles. Got about 75 just from one runthrough. The other two? Just run around lower elevation areas such as around whiterun. Stay near the paths to get more, unless you see butterflies flying around... go catch them.. they usually gather around the ground near growing mountain flowers, thistle, etc.

Basically if the potion is not worth 400 minimum, preferably 600-800, don't waste your time making it. All the most abundant items can be used with less abundant items to make potions worth more money. Waste all your butterfly wings or flowers making potions worth 50-200, you're unnecessarily wasting your time. I would also, like smithing and enchanting, wait until you have a stockpile of items before starting.. start with a base of at least 125 butterfly wings and 200-250 purple mountain flowers, and anything else you find along the way. Don't forget about farming the low elevation areas of eastmarsh to get the unique and relatively abundant number of ingredients located there, many off the main paths.

Not just a little less, but 13 lbs less: 7 weight for Elven vs. 20 weight for Dragonscale.

Elven reaches the armor cap with a two point investment in light armor with all the smithing / enchanting / alchemy buffs discussed here. It only requires one point in Agile Defender and one point in Custom Fit (or none in Custom Fit and two in Agile Defender). Since Agile Defender and Custom Fit are a prerequisite for Unhindered and Wind Walker, which you would be taking with Dragonscale, they are effectively both the same damage reduction wise except that the Elven armor has the advantage of weighing 65% less. This leaves you with the flexibility to be carrying extremely light alternative sets and makes for a much more versatile character. The weight of spare armor sets is one of my biggest attractions to this build. I'm sorry the aesthetics of Elven Armor don't agree with you.

Steed Stone definitely seems like the best bet if you go Heavy Armor as it saves 3 perk points AND gives you an extra 100 carry weight (which could be viewed as saving you 6 perk points as I imagine that some players have invested the requisite three points in Pickpocket just for the extra pockets).

However, my real question is this:

How necessary is Unhindered or the Steed Stone when your armor only weighs 7 lbs?

When you are wearing full Daedric at 81 lbs, your stamina drains super fast and Conditioning or Steed Stone are pretty much required.

But at 7 lbs, is there really much difference in speed and stamina penalty between natural and Conditioned?

Someone should test this.

Because, if there isn't much difference, then this really opens us up as we can save the perk points for Unhindered, AND use a different standing stone.

Im at 75 alchemy, and i barely can make potions that average 300, forget 400 plus.

Also, gathering the materials is the SLOWEST way to level alchemy. and yes, it takes a lot longer that BS (you should be using iron and leather armor to level)

not only that but there's no need to go all the way up any of the trees really except enchanting and smithing. Alchemy, not needed.. heavy armor, block, one handed.. not needed. Sneak.. maybe depending on your character. Archery, not needed. I plan on making my sword and board character a conjuration mage with the powerful enchants I'll have.. put that helmet to good use, and make some rings and stuff to fortify magic.

Enchanting required for best +Smithing and +Alchemy gear
Alchemy required for best +Smithing and +Enchanting potions
Smithing required to make the gear.

I don't see where you think we can cut corners. All of our numbers to date have assumed you were able to craft Artifact-Level Legendary Gear.

And what of this "613 possible max" smithing skill? That seems like a bunch of horse pocky to me, and I really have no idea where that figure is coming from.

Also I noticed you mentioned armor, that chart is all about weapons, so now I'm further confused than previously.

Also, Thanks for all your hard work

I think he might be talking perks. If so, then he's correct. We don't need to remove all possible neg. affects, daedric is better than dragon, etc.

No matter what I do, I've never seen a Smithing skill above 100. Nothing makes it go higher; not enchants nor alchemy. I think their '600' is some sort of index they've created for measuring effective smithing skill. They may be onto something; I haven't finished running my numbers, and most likely wont for a day or two. That said, their presentation is misleading and leaves much to be desired.

Ahh. I've never suggested or implied we need to max those trees. Enchanting 8, Achemy 7, Smithing 5 certainly doesn't cover every perk in each of those trees. Our summary posts at the beginning of the thread tell you explicitly which perks are useful in those trees.