She's a vampire, so she doesn't really count. Who knows how long she's been alive.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that not all Thalmor are mages. The soldiers have a few spells, but in the embassy basemant you can overhear them talking about how the mages look down on the grunts and they hope the dragons eat the mages first.

Really? You think that, coming from a stormcloak supporter?!

Lol, I remember the new "High Magi" from The capital city.

Did you talk to Jarl Igmund at all?

Edit: Your edit makes more sense

That Annoying Jarl who made me retrieve some bloody old shield?
Edit: Yes I dislike him, Can fathom how he let his city fall to the damm silver blood.

I think the larger point about Talos is not only a social one but the fact that he's an actual god and humanity's protector. According to MK, the most powerful being in the TES universe. Lessened Talos worship weakens him- that's why the Thalmor are so keen on eradicating Talos and the sons of Talos.

And yes, some of the imperials still privately worship him, but they're also cooperating with the Thalmor in destroying his shrines and writing propaganda against his divinity, and letting Thalmor drag Talos worshippers off to their prisons. You have to ask yourself what's left of an empire who would use its founder as barter. Sort of a Belethor mentality "I'd sell my own sister if I had one." And they'll sell Skyrim out, too, if it comes to that.

It was sarcasm.

A question for those that believe the Thalmor are in good shape.
Do you believe all Altmer are on board with Thalmor.(anybodys PC doesn't count) If the answer is no then that opens up the possibility that all the super uber magery becomes available to whoever goes after the Thalmor.If you believe all Altmer are on board please explain why.

really, no one still considers my point that the dwermer will return to exterminate the high elves with the assistance of the empire? My conspiracy will come true, just you watch non believers!

I think it more likely that we could have a Psijic ex machina than a Dwemer one. The Psijics are up to something, and now they'll have the Eye of Magnus if that is made canon. The very artifact that's behind most of the Nord mistrust of elves.

The Rising Threat is written by an Altmer, which tells me there's anti-Thalmor resistance in Summerset. And we know from Malborn that there's Bosmer resistance, too.

Very good points have been brought up supporting both sides. Unfortunately, no one is right. It is up to the developers what to do with the storyline. It seems stupid for them not to eventually include a DLC that expands upon the civil war. However, I think that whichever side you pick will ultimately have no effect on the canon ending. In the end, the humans will most likely win. Perhaps there will be an intervention from a third-party? Who knows, maybe at this time the Akaviri will launch another invasion of Tamriel, destroying the Thalmor but weakening their own forces enough for the humans (this means an invasion from the south, even though Akavir is east of Tamriel).

If they were as horrible and uncaring as you insist they are, they would have let Ulfric have Skyrim instead of wasting Imperial lives aiding the Nords that support the Empire.

The main reason I just can't get behind the stormcloaks is because Skyrim has always been not only the birthplace of MAN (not just NORDS) but is also the birthplace of the empire. For the Nords to succeed from the empire helps nobody. It makes Skyrim weaker against Thalmor, it makes the empire weaker, etc. It's the same reason why in real life the french canadians don't start up their own nation from non-french canadians. For Ulfric to determine the best interests for his people by stating that all of Skyrim must become indipendant, just shows to me a serious lack of foresight.

Secondly, since when did the empire write the concordant? I'm almost 100% positive it was stated by both NPCs and in books that the Thalmor proposed it. They did this because yes - they were weakened, and the empire agreed because they were weak too and just wanted peace. I could be wrong though. That was just my impression.

Thirdly, I'd hardly say the Markarth Incident was "fake" just because it was written by an "imperial". If anything, that means it's less biased than it would be if written by the foresworn or a nord. The reason why there's inst much about it beyond in-game books is simply to due with the fact that the only people that would be directly involved with it are either directly apart of Ulfric's court (and thus, why would they ever want to talk about it?), or were killed off. The "foresworn" don't talk about it likely because there aren't really all too many living foresworn around that were apart of that incident, and because Bethesda designed that faction as a unique type of bandit - not some kind of special sub-faction. You don't walk into bandit camps and learn about their history, do you? They wouldn't exactly be reliable sources for direct information when it comes to that stuff.

And finally, you forget to mention a key fact where the Thalmor had imprisioned Ulfric during the great war, and implanted him as a double-agent of sorts, so he WOULD start a rebellion. The empire is signifigantly weaker without skyrim, and the Thalmor know this. The used Ulfric as a means to keep skyrim in turmoil. Granted, Ulfric probably don't know he's being manipulated, but its clear that a Skyrim that isn't controlled by the empire, and a Skyrim that is in chaos, is in the best interests of the thalmor. They do mention they don't want Ulfric to remain in power or "fully win the war", but at the same time it's obvious that his entire rebellion does nothing but help the Thalmor in the long run.

That's the main reason why I can't support them. Because the empire aren't really the bad guys, and the Stormcloaks act like they are. Pushing an entire war with the single goal of defeating someone who isn't really your enemy sounds like a massive waste of resources, time, and lives. To the point where it's pretty obvious that Ulfric wishes to gain power. Don't say he's humble because he lets the queen still have the throne and waits for a "moot" when you finish their questline. He's as bound by tradition and honor as he is bound by his desire for power. If there are leigitmate systems in place to gain power, he's going to tip the scales in his favor so he can get power "the honorable way", in the same way that he killed the old high king, in an honor-bound duel. Just because someone is interested in the honor of their traditional values, doesn't make them some kind of saint in the choices they make though. In a way, it feeds his ego - he can feel like he has more power and more legitimate authority if he gains it through public shows of how "honorable" he is. This is the main "appeal" of the stormcloaks from outsiders, why he even gets people to join his cause, and it's a great public-speaking tool to catch the attention.

What I see is that there's always been a certain strain or faction of Nords who've always wanted to kick out global and/or imperial influences - and this is the latest excuse to do it. The whole issue of Talos and the Thalmor are just excuses for this other motivation. All they needed was something new to urge toward it again. They're just using Talos to fuel this other cause. It's always been there though. At one point, King Wulfarth kicked out Alessian influences and reinstated a whole oldskool Nordic religion. He didn't even want anything to do with an 8 Divines concept, let alone elves. And no matter what the rest of the world does, these guys never die off. They always pop up and start crying about being True Nords or something. So anyways, it's not so much a dumb or shortsighted strategy as it is something they were looking for an excuse to do again.

The Empire is useless against the Thalmor.


"Hey give us a break, our entire army is on the border to prevent the Thalmor from invading."

....

"Oh hey Thalmor soldiers, off to arrest, imprison, and likely kill someone even suspected of worshiping Talos? Go right on head, we won't stop you. Send out all the patrols you like. Hey, build your own fort while you're at it to!"




Oh yes, the Empire is our saving grace. Oh wait no they're not, they're perfectly content to live for eternity under the Thalmor thumb. They may not like it but they're not going to do anything about it, at least not the Empire presented in Skyrim. Just play the "Missing in Action" quest and find out how Tulius reacts to the Thalmor having their own private prison ala northwatch Keep. No regret, just swept under the rug.



Stormcloaks got racism issues and Ulfric is an egomaniac, but they'll do something about the Thalmor at least. And well they got me, the dragonborn, capable of wiping out an army of elves on my own so I'm not worried about the whole "we can't beat them" thing.

I think that's kind of the main message of the game. But it applies to both sides.

While the Altmer are the best sailors of Mer, Nords are the best sailors of Men. In order to take the fight to the Thalmor, you'd need to attack Summurset. Which would require some pretty good sailors.


You do realize that this is not the same Empire from the previous TES games, right? In all the previous TES games, it was the Septim Empire, and Uriel Septim VII was the Emperor throughout all four games. In TES V: Skyrim, it's the Mede Empire. After the assassination of Ocato at the hands of the Thalmor, the various counties of Cyrodiil erupted into a civil war. Titus Mede I was a Colovian Warlord who managed to beat all the other contenders for the throne, and then proclaimed himself Emperor, once again uniting Cyrodiil into a single nation. Titus Mede II is a pushover. Not only did he give up when the WGC was offered, but he didn't even fight back when a Dark Brotherhood Assassin showed up on his boat.


Exactly. The Empire basically gave the Thalmor absolute free reign to plant spies throughout their entire infrastructure with the WGC. The very moment that the Emperor orders the attack on the Aldmeri Dominion, the Thalmor will know when/where/how it will happen before the order even reaches the Empire's troops, due to their spies. The Thalmor would have a much harder time gathering intelligence in a freed Skyrim, especially considering any pointy eared bastard who doesn't meet the blade edge of Wuuthrad, would be watched VERY closely.


Heh, you must've read one of my earlier posts about that. The Tsaesci have the power to wipe out the Thalmor fleets by manipulating the weather, they did it before to Uriel V's fleet during the 3E. The Tsaesci were also responsible for killing and "devouring" all the Black Dragons on Akavir. Now that Dragons have resurfaced in Skyrim, will the Tsaesci continue to hunt them down?

The Nords drove back the Falmer a few years after the Falmer massacred the Nords at Saarthal during the Night of Tears. The Nords weren't the ones that turned the Falmer into monsters, the Dwemer were. Which is rather ironic, considering the Dwemer were a race of Mer that was very similar to the Altmer (Pride, Arrogance, Hubris).

Skyrim is/was the strong arm of the Empire. Whenever the Empire wanted a province quelled or conquered, they called on the Nords, and the Nords would "Get er dun!". The Nords had been assisting the Empire ever since the Allesian Empire, thousands of years ago. They were the very reason why the slaves were able to rebel against the Ayleids, to form the Allessian Empire. They have shed so much blood for the Empire over the millenia, just for the Empire to spit in their face with the ban of Talos worship. The Empire is currently a tool of the Thalmor, and treats it's provinces like tools.

Silver and blood. That's what they need.

That empire is long gone.

No, the jarl in Markarth is a staunch imperial supporter and he doesn't corroborate anything in the book. No one in Markarth does apart from Madanach, who's not exactly impartial.

Is it any more wrong for Ulfric to wish power so that he can lead Skyrim in the way he sees fit than for the empire to expend blood to keep power over it? The empire is the one allowing the Thalmor in to Skyrim, giving them access and support. With friends like that you don't need enemies. They've lost their legitimacy to rule.

exactly +1

its not the lands mass per se thats REALLY important to the "empire" its more along the lines of a huge chunk of thier money AND throw away soldiers are from Skyrim. If this was a honorable septim empire which i have grown to love, this would actually be a debate but it seems that alot of people dotn fully realize this is a BRAND NEW empire. Not the same empire as in daggerfall/morrowind/oblivion but a brand new empire, same body but different face/mind/voice. Hell if this was a septim empire, they woulda never lost the war in the first place, they woulda released all thier slaves in the hopes that one was a fabled hero....
but ya this new empire...it needs Skyrim WAYYYY more than Skyrim needs the Empire...cough cough escuse me...cryodill..

People do realize that it's a different empire. It doesn't matter though, if you want to change it. The empire isn't "gone" unless one of my characters says it is. There are no [censored] facts to debate. It's just all of matter of choices. And before you mention that there's a "canon" choice, and it's "Stormcloaks", then excuse while I flush it down my toilet. Along with the big dump I just took. Damn sweetrolls.

The games have all been hinting at the dissolution of the empire. Even if the empire holds on to Skyrim, it already is a shadow of what it once was, and the Mede dynasty was never anything like the Septim dynasty. I've seen the old-timers raging about Morrowind's fate, too, but that doesn't change it.

Whatever happens, happens. Until I get real confirmation, and not "hints", then I play this RPG, and futz around with my options. I'm not here to be railroaded into being just one dude.

actually yes the empire and the stormcloaks are all gone and neither will be canon because Ulfric wont get the Moot while theres a dragonborn alive AND the mede empire is alrdy gone halfway thru the game after teh DB questline, they figuring out who to replace it and why not replace it with a dragonborn like the emporers of old...