Sword fighting styles are based on killing the opponent before he kills you and that's all there is to it. Saying that you used katana with "speed" and the longsword with "power" you display no less ignorance than the people you call "kiddies". You think a real feudal japan samurai wouldn't kick the enemy to throw him off balance or use his height, strength to an advantage? Or that european swordsmanship doesn't involve "speed"? Look up where rapiers originated from and try that again.


There were dozens of different types of armor in Europe alone, of various materials and hardness(and let's not forget shields), and not everyone in middle ages was running in a full plate - quite the opposite, as a set of plate mail was extremely expensive.

Being forced to go for enemy's weak points puts you at a serious disadvantage, so if your weapon was capable of delivering injury despite enemy's armor(piercing, cutting through or simply causing enough blunt trauma) then you would definitely not try to be mr. fancypants and try and strike the weak points needlessly.

And that puts the katana at a disadvantage compared to european longsword because it's very bad at cutting through armor and mediocre at best at piercing through it.

you should check out ancient damascus steel (not modern ones) ... awesome. and no, japanese swords have nothing much in common with damascus, although the patterns seem similiar.


[img]http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,739323,00.jpg[/img]

I don't get some of these posts. People are forgetting the lore.


There are no katana in Skyrim. These blades are Akaviri styled and have nothing to do with Japan. Japan doesn't exist on Mundus.

For the Blades themselves to adopt this style of weaponry, it must mean it has some potency against standard imperial or elven garb.

They are talking about katana in real-life. At the core, their posts are off topic, so yeah. They're not forgetting lore, they're not even talking about Skyrim

The Akaviri katana works wonders in Oblivion, and they look cool too But I guess I need to look the part before wielding that

be nice. since he is a sword fighting enthusiast and actually practices sword fighting, he is primarily exposed to sword techniques that are being taught right now. And since no one mentioned chinese fencing and the european school of sword fencing was all but lost (apart from several thousand instruction manuals), the only sword fighting school left is kendo. and western fencing if you want to call foils swords.
and compared to the hollywood depictions of two-handed longswords (which almost everyone confuses with greatswords) the japanese school looks more graceful, i guess. kendo in itself is pretty stupid (you have to actually say "ey bloke, ahm gonna bash your head now" before actually doing the attack) but tournament rules generally don't translate to a battlefield.

True, but you have to consider this: The european longsword was a true weapon of war. It was effective against most types of enemies, even - within limits - against armored opponents, provided you managed to kick their feet from under them first. Europe was constantly at war with everyone, so they simply couldn't afford to carry weapons that were ineffective.
The japanese katana reached it's current form in the 17th century - a time where japan was largely pacified and no large internal battles between armored soldiers were fought anymore, meaning that the Katana almost never came into contact with metal armor.
The prime use of the Katana was as a dueling weapon against unarmored duelists. And a status symbol of the noble warrior caste, whose influence was declining steadily and sought to distinguish themselves and their nobility, which led to the secondary use of the katana - the killing of helpless peasants against which the Katana and it's extreme sharpness excelled and it's fragility didn't matter.


Oh, and to stay slightly on-topic: If longswords and katanas in Skyrim were made of the same material and used the same smithing techniques, then both blades would be roughly the same length and weight (with the longsword weighing more due to the massive sword guard). Both blades would be equally good against lightly armored enemies (slight edge to katana) and both would svck against plate-&chainmail when slashing (advantage to longsword when stabbing).
Tactically the longsword would be superior since the double edge and the swordguard allows for more maneuvers.



Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXWxFaGSghc

Didn't Tarma use a two-handed sword? Or am I remembering the books wrong?

Anyway, I like the grace of a Katana as well. Western swords are...clunky? in comparison.

They look big and mean, western swords

Japanese katana looks a lot more sleek, since it's... well... a bit narrower (in wide), and they match the modern civilization's definition of "beautiful" women
Small
Doesn't look mean
Looks fragile
Awesome as decoration

On PC you can unlock your way to Delphine's secret room right after Helgen. It won't break anything and the chest there is a safe container.

If you're on console and you don't want to start the MQ at all, there's a guy at the inn on the road from Windhelm to Dawnstar (I think it's called Nighshade inn) who carries a Blade sword. He must be a veteran of the war, possibly a former Blade although no quest is attached to him.

Wow. All I can say is that you've clearly no idea how to use a weapon. And you continue to obsess over the effect blades have on armor. In any fight, you want to kill the other person before they kill you. Anyone with any skill, will weaken an opponent first, not just swing wildly and "hope to cause blunt trauma with a blade." Please, if you want to debate with any credibility, go at least read a book about swordfighting, or fencing (which are two different things). Or possibly even take a martial arts class that has a focus on weaponry. Then come back and, as you say, try again.

Why is everyone talking about grace? What is so graceful about killing somebody?
Grace doesn't kill people either.

When you have to kill somebody, better look good in the process. Makes a great memorable scene

Especially if you wear black suit, black glasses, and sees the world in 0s and 1s

If you're in a movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Different_Rapiers.jpg is what became epithet of european swords at it's climix. A very rougish weapon at that too, often applied with poison on it's tips. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the effectiveness of it against armour, because swords were considered not. Also the argument about steel and it's material is superfluous as the weapons were made of iron. Steel before the industrial revolution were made only by chance.

Some of you should read up on katanas... Real, true katanas are some of the strongest blades known to man. Just saying. And the more "folds" the blade has when smithing, the stronger it is.

Sure, most people like japanese things because of all the anime and all that... But people like me, who grew up watching kung fu movies, and samurai flicks, have a genuine facination with such weapons.

They are beautiful, well crafted weapons. And there is no denying it.

And... Those of you saying that katanas are no good at blocking? Pbbb... Where'd you get your info?

And "katanas are only good for slashing." umm... Wtf else are you supposed to do with a sword? Make em eat it? They are good for slashing piercing and stabbing. You want the sword to cook you dinner? It will allow you to be able to aquire your dinner. Thats about it.

Katanas are beautifully crafted swords but I always chuckle when I see some modern blacksmith who makes Katana 'according to old techniques' and insists that they're able of slicing through everything.

First, the techniques may be traditional but the starting material is not: only in the XIX century science finally found ways to make truly pure iron and, from that, steel with all the desirable properties we know today. In the past, it was a matter of luck and finding the right source... that's why meteoric iron was so much sought after (high nickel content, almost no sulphur) or that's why Damascus steel quality dropped after the sole mine in India from which most of the 'high grade' ore came was exhausted. Same for the famous 'sparta steel' which had a high manganese content, almost as high as the 'spiegeleisen' alloy which was a favourite for bulletproof helmets during WW1.

Renaissance in Europe brought infantry armed with guns and from there it was a race between armorer and weaponsmiths... a race which eventually the armorers lost since a highly developed XVIII century musket (still smoothbore and still firing round balls of hardened lead) could punch through all practical plate armor. Yet, chest armors worn during the Napoleonic era battles by elite mounted troops were very effective against cavalry swords, shrapnel and even stray bullets at the end of their flights. No battle between such mounted armored troop and a katana armed opponent ever happened but I'm pretty confident a XVIII katana wouldn't be able to cut through a XVIII European armor and would be as effective as bashing it with a rod of metal of the same weight.

You answered to yourself. Slashing is only one way of using a sword. European fencing schools evolved towards thrusting both as a way to defeat armors at the joints and to expose the least area of the body as possible to the enemy.

#1 I'm talking about the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg. You linked to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM. The Longsword and the Katana are two handed. The rapier is one handed.
#2 Longswords were somewhat effective against armor with the apropriate technique like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2r9WU4kntk, where you grab the sword at the blade for precise stabbing, hilt blows and wrestling. You need gauntlets for that, of course.
#3 Katanas are famously made from Tamahagane steel .... steel, not iron. Early examples of european steel (not simply iron) weapons can be dated back as far as 500 BC to the ancient Celts. Iron forging goes back to 2000 BC by the ancient Hittites. The european iron age started about 1100 years before japans iron age. In fact, japan was one of the last countries to enter the iron age. What I gave you just now was a bit of history. Google the word. And quality of steel matters.

You should use other sources for reading up on katanas than mangas. Historic katanas are considered fragile due to the low quality iron ore available in japan. And the folding process is used to make the steel pure ... only then the steel (or steel ingots) is used to forge the parts of the blade.

and everything msxyz said.

Oh those rapiers are beautiful. Why isn't there anything like that in Skyrim? They'd look fantastic on display.

The orcish armor looks Samurai-ish.

It does if you're using rapiers in fencing-style fighting.

They'd require an entirely unique attack animation, and would lack sideways power attacks.

What abouthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O%27Malley she killed people.

They would be beautiful animations, but yeah, no power attacks from a sharpened toothpick. And, yes, sword historians, I know there's way more to a rapier than being a sharpened spike - it's an exaggeration.

lets just all agree we have our own preferences on wepons they're tools to be used for killing in game since there are no styles other than one-handed two-handed bringing them up using them as references is not a usefull comparison

In a fantasy game? No they wouldn't.

You think rapier fans would be ok with a slashing rapier?