Skyrim is a great game. One of the best I've played to date. It falls short in a lot of ways, not of being a good game, but -I think- of being the greatest game made to date (in this genre, of course).

One of my biggest gripes with it is the same gripe I have about almost all single player RPGS - the main quest line always involves me having to save the world. Even the other major quest lines (College of winterhold, thieves guild, et cetera) are similar in that the last quest involves you becoming guild master, Archmage, or whatever.

This phenomenon creates a lot of problems.

The problem I have with this is that generally, I don't ever want to save the entire world and I don't want to be the Archmage, the master of the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood and the Companions and the whatever else. It's just cheesy. Why? Two reasons.

First, it creates a lot of problems with Immersion. For example, I can become the Archmage of the Mages guild (I know its the College of Winterhold, but I'm going to say mages guild since that works for all the other ES games) in like a week of game time depending on how long I mess around in between quests and how efficient I am with fast travel. Meanwhile, all these other little students are still toiling away in their little dormitory, practicing their little spells and whatnot, and either beg me to help them with some mundane problem or give me some lip about running by them to fast or something. It just doesn't make any sense.

The same is true of the quest line that results in you become some titular figure (Thane, guild master, etc), or the MQ in most any game that requires that you save the world. Despite all I've done for them, people still give me lip about casting magic in front of them, or they tell me I should get new clothes if I go see the Jarl. What they apparently forgot is that I'm the chosen one, or whatever, and I'm wearing boots worth enough money to buy their entire crappy little city (which I could then burn down for fun with fireballs that I shoot out of my hands).

Plain and simple, it just doesn't make much sense that I can be the head of almost every faction in the entire province, and have time to make sure the operations of all of them run smoothly WHILE saving the world from dragons, zombies, Daedra, a weird heart thing in a volcano, Sauron, or darkspawn (cheesiest name for a world-threatening malevolent faction I've ever heard, also a horrible game in my opinion).

Furthermore, (Next sentence is somewhat of a spoiler) using the mages guild by way of example, when I become the head of the mages guild I realize that apparently the head of the mages guild doesn't really do anything. I'm a paladin (who has 100 restoration and 75 alteration but very low skills in all other magic schools), but I'm the Archmage of the mages guild. I'm never even at the mages guild, I'm not that good at magic, I hate everyone at the mages guild, they all treat me like an idiot, but I'm the Archmage? I don't really even get any benefits from being head of the mages guild, other than the (admittedly cool looking) robes, and a really inconvenient apartment (takes a fast travel and two load screens to get into it).

Second, sometimes I just don't want to save the world, or I don't want to be guild master. I don't like the commoners of Skyrim that much. They get pissy when I cast magic in front of them, or run to fast by them, or whatever. Or, they give me lip even though I'm their damn Thane, or boss or whatever. So, I've got better things to do than save them from dragons or Daedra, or darkspawn or whatever.

Contrast this with Baldur's Gate II (Which I consider the greatest RPG of all time)

In that game, the main quest involved you chasing down a very powerful mage - a disfigured elven exile - who had tortured you, murdered and dissected one of your friends (though you're secretly glad he's dead because now you get to bang his hot widow), and then kidnapped this total babe that you grew up with, but there was always sixual tension between you two (even though she turns out to be your half-sister). Now to be sure, this guy was bad for the world, and bad for some elves, but in the grand scheme of things it was pretty much entirely personal. You weren't chasing him down to save the world, you were chasing him down to either save your hot half-sister, or to get a little payback for torturing you in his dungeon, or both. It was compelling. You wanted to put him down. In Skyrim and other games, you don't really want to do any of the main quest. You're compelled too because you're the chosen one, or some other nonsense, and it always amazes me (through the dialogue options) how readily your character falls into line and does what he's told. Now I know that you don't have to do the main quest in TES games. I usually put it off until last, because it just feels natural to me to be gearing up for the main challenge (In TES games though, you don't have to gear up for it because you can beat it at low levels, I think this is a bad design choice too but that's for another day). But, simply not doing it is stupid, then the game as no climix, no main point. I want to do the main quest, I just don't like that it always involves me saving the world, and that it usually gives my character few choices in the matter (again, through dialogue options - I know you can just walk away and not do it, but that's not the point).

In Baldur's Gate II, there were no immersion issues created by the main quest. You weren't there to save the world, and no one cared about you. It made the world seem much larger, when in fact it was a lot smaller than those of many modern RPGs, especially the TES series games. Sure there were some quest lines that involved you saving this town, or that person (generally there was also an evil route that involved doing the opposite), but in general you were a small fish in a big, deep pond. The world was doing its own thing, you were just a part of it.

Why can't games take a hint from the most acclaimed RPG of all time. If you set such high expectations with the quest lines, then MEET THOSE EXPECTATIONS. If I'm the Archmage of the mages guild, I don't expect to be able to be the guild master of the fighters guild, and every other guild there is. If I'm the chosen one, I want some damn respect when I walk through town. It's really not that hard to do. In Baldurs Gate II, for example, when you completed a quest line that ended with you in ownership of a large castle, there was some dialogue whereby you could appoint an NPC to handle the management of the estate and its finances. You could return anytime, and it was a cool spot (though in that game a place to keep things wasn't really necessary). AND it gave you a certain amount of cash each game week, which was cool. "Okay", you thought, "that's all taken care of." In Skyrim on the other hand, you're just left out in the cold - You're the archmage, but you don't have to show up for work or do anything, or even ever come back to the College. It just runs itself, which isn't so hard since its the same 9 people doing the same exact thing every day.

Alternatively, you could adjust the player's expectations about the world's reaction to him. If I expect people to treat me like an [censored] just like they treat everyone else, then it won't break immersion when people give me back talk. If I'm not the archmage of a prestigious mages college, it won't surprise me when some stupid neophyte annoys me with requests to help him with some petty problem he has, or gets mad at me for bumping into him.


What do you guys think?

I'd definitely prefer not to almost automatically become the archmage(it gave you no choice about it) or save the world in the next TES, yeah. I mean my character is never going to hang around looking after the guild like a normal NPC, he'll be gone most of the time, no good reason for him to be given that position.

I dont mind the main quest being the saving the world thing but the rest does annoy me yea I actually prefered the morrowind go there get this bring it back to me quests from the guilds because they made sense (to an extent) they didnt involve "epic" betrayals, have to save the world from such and such or all that you just did your jobs and got paid but I do think a more personal touch might be better maybe I'll hunt down baldurs gate as I havent played any of them

tl;dr,

but try Dragon Age 2 if you want to play a game that isn't "omg epic save the world". But be warned, the game play was beat with a large nerf bat as compared to Dragon Age: Origin and it is practically an ARPG. Also NWN2: Storm of Zehir wasn't a total "save the world" quest and it was even somewhat "sandboxish". Neither was the independent add-on Mysteries of Westgate, but I don't know if you can even buy that independent add-on anymore?

and yes, it's odd that you become the highest ranking person in your respective guild/college/whatever in such a short time. While it can be rationalized that the PC is a superior individual, it just doesn't really hold water IMHO.

EDIT - come to think about it, NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer wasn't a "save the world" quest either. It was a story about curing the curse of the soul eater. It was actually pretty much an AWESOME story if you can tolerate the NWN2 engine anymore.

main quest to save the world im fine with because i can easily avoid it. i hate being made the archamage or the head of any guild just because i did some quest and especially if they passed over far more qualified people than myself for the position. im looking at you college and passing over tulfdor.

the fallout series did it much more realistically. you were rewarded for helping out factions and even given rank in some of them. but never in their wildest dreams did it occur to any factions in the fallout games to hand over complete control over their organization to a complete stranger they just met days or weeks before. TES games are so unrealistic and stupid in this regard. the college should have given you a nice room and maybe a couple of magical items and a discount at their shops.......but thats it. tulfor should have been the archmage (he was one of their principle teachers after all and if he wasnt around you would never have been able to complete the questline) and the same with the other guilds.

DB questline i can see because its purely a meritocracy and if the dread father picks someone as their champion he doesnt give a hoot how long the guild has known them. but the rest of the guilds should have stuck to more realistic approach.

China wants their wall back.

Anyways, I do agree with you. There is alot of "saving the world" in games nowadays so Bethesda is just following the flow. I got tired of saving the world long time ago, so I try to enslave it instead.

Personally, I feel like the saving the world archetype isn't necessary per-say; however your character should definitely be a major role in something or another. There's always a defining main quest that is supposed to "end" the game or make it feel complete. Does this need to be saving the world? No, but it's an easier plotline to develop and make most people stand behind and have motivation for completing (other than that one ass in the corner shouting "Let them burn.")

As for guilds and their insistence that you become guild master; it is necessary but it need not be so expedient. Many would feel cheated if a guild quest line didn't allow you to completely rise through the ranks; however what Skyrim (and Oblivion) lack is actually rising through the ranks. You're there, you stumble upon something, and voila! You're now their fearless leader!

Which is actually quite surprising Skyrim fell short on this aspect, when you consider the new Radiant system. They could of easily created many, MANY fluff quests you completed for your superiors that slowly etched you towards the top through this system without being all too creative. Have 4 radiant quests here, then an actually hand designed one. Once you complete 3-5 hand designed ones you can undertake a main mission that leads towards ranking up. They wouldn't even have to bring back requiring skills to make it seem arduous to rank up, and it'd be an accomplishment.

The only guild quests that really fit were Thieves (only if you completed all the side-quest radiant quests) and Dark Brotherhood (due to somewhat forced spoilers.)

And as far as recognition goes, it really falls into the same thing that all of these can be fixed by... Bethesda needs to take a break from improving their world creating (as they're really damn good at it by now) and improve their writing and how progression falls into that writing.

This is why I'm looking forward to DLC, maybe we get to screw over a Daedric Prince? Destroy the Realm instead of saving it, finally letting us play the terrifying force in a game instead of the ragged, beaten, good guy?
Oh gods, you've got me thinking about being a bad guy, well played sir!

Yeah, I tend to agree about the DB questline - but then again was the listener always the leader? Or were the speakers really the political leaders and the listener more of the person who just conveyed Sithis' targets?

Either way, once you're the leader - there's really no depth to the 'leading' of the guilds...

Furthermore, it seems odd that you can be the leader of > 1 guild. Who has time to be the listener for the DB and the guildmaster of the thieves guild and the archmage of the college of winterhold? Sure, I can impose limits myself in a 'RP' way, but the mechanic exists and should probably limit you to leading 1 guild.

It's sort an Elder Scrolls thing....the MQ involves saving the World....however

Daggerfall and Morrowind did it right, at the start of the game you aren't told its the end of the world....it just a simple investigation into some event that is pretty meaningless. If you choose ot go further then the world-saving is slowly uncovered.

Hell in Morrowind you don't find out your saving the world from the Sixth House until a long way into the plot.....and it's the same with Daggerfall.


Oblivion and Skyrim did it wrong, telling you about how important the MQ is and how you will save the world by doing it.......Skyrim does it a bit slower then Oblivion....but not by much.

What's strange is that in Daggerfall, you never can actually become the leader of any faction you join, just a very high ranking member. Starting in Morrowind, every faction had you becoming the leader (despite it not actually meaning anything from a gameplay standpoint). Now, in Morrowind, you had to at least be a master in one of their preferred skills. Then Oblivion and Skyrim dropped that, so now you can be an archmage as an amateur spellcaster.

And I really don't understand why almost every RPG, including nearly every JRPG and lately these last few TES games keep using the "save the world" motif. Why would anyone even want to do that on an objective level anyways? The world always disappears when it ends or you quit (and resets after selecting "New Game").

Branching off of of Da mage's point.

How would you guys feel about unwittingly/Unknowingly saving the world?

Bah, I do that every day in real life (or not... heh)

--Randall

That's much better then the Cliché Hey you're special! Save the world you're the only one who can! Go quick before it's too late!

I like well-done "save-the-world" stories. I found myself left cold by Skyrim's. I wish the Civil War had gotten played up more - that had some serious potential.

i agree. someone posted it more eloquently than i could ever hope to but basically he/she said when your character becomes to "special", its no longer special anymore.

@damage........i really really wish i could play daggerfall.

I'd just like to say that you are absolutely NOT just some random nobody in Baldur's Gate that no one cares about. You're (one of) the living incarnations of the God of Murder and your very existence is part of a plot by the Bhaal to return to power after his death during the Time of Troubles (when all of the gods were turned mortal). The entire plot of the games revolves around this fact; the first game even opens with another one of your "siblings" attempting to murder you. By the end of the series you've killed the prince of all demons and possibly become a God yourself.


Anyway, part of roleplaying is that if an activity ingame doesn't fit your character then don't do it. If it doesn't make sense for your character to be the archmage of the mage's guild then don't become it. If you don't want to be the savior of the world then just abandon the main quest after the intro. With that said, I agree with the premise that the world should do a better job of acknowledging who you are and what you've done.

It's free http://www.elderscrolls.com/daggerfall/

Oh heck no. It's one big reason I play and I like having quests I can do as the good guy. I'd like every quest to have a no killing option for resolving it and then I'd be a very happy Dovahkiin. Playing evil is not my thing and I don't need to make difficult decisions about right and wrong. The lines are pretty clear and I'm good with that. I don't do DB or TG or become a werewolf or vampire so there's plenty of stuff for other people to enjoy and less for someone like me. I still love the game but I sure don't want the good questlines cut back...more of them, if anything. The world needs saving!

oh i already have it. i have a new compilation version that even plays on newer PCs. the problem is that my eyes literally bleed from the graphics when i tried playing it. im waiting for that daggerxl engine to get finished.

Sometimes I find myself thinking that that is the story of Skyrim.

I actually agree- A LOT. I`ve played many rpgs over the years and it`s really all the same.

I`d really like to play an rpg which, while making you important where you are involved, did not have earth-shattering implications for the world.

i`d like to be a cog in the world, noticed only by those I come into contact with, but overall, not changing world affairs at all for a change.

People are so good at making their own rules when RPing by avoiding stuff that is in game, and yet fail to RP when something isn't in it.

Here's a couple of stuff you can do if you have the will power, which obviously, much of you don't.

Don't do the main quest. You can even uncheck it and never have it on your map. And if you don't wanna save the world, don't play most of the game, since that is the premise of most of the games. Don't become the guildmaster either. Also the adepts that are still adepts; they didn't kill thousands of necromancers, recovered the msot valuable of artifacts, killed a single dragon, let alone numbers and numbers of them You did. So I think that pretty much qualifies you to become one.

About people giving you the lip. Well it's a big world, Jarls are not introducing you to their hole set of servants and friends, nor are there posters, radio, TV or pretty much ANYTHING that could inform people of how does the Dragonborn look like, if they even heard about him. I think "Hey, I know you.." is the most satisfying thing they could do, instead of Oblivion's "HEY, YOU SAVED US, YOU'RE A BLOODY GOD, MAAAN" and drooling all over you.

As for the story, I'm not going to defend some of it's stuff since it's not the best written piece of script out there, but it has been done well above the standard crap and I see no reason to particularly whine about it.

Yeah, it would feel a lot more rewarding if it were more like trying to put yourself on the throne in Dragon Age: Origins. You had to really know what you were doing to make it happen. But that sort of thing, having a lot of branches in a quest, means a lot of branching dialog. And as someone pointed out in another thread, Skyrim is about at the limit of what you can fit on a console disk, so more dialog isn't really an option.

Well, that I agree.
I saved the world like 3-5 times in Skyrim...