I liked the Morrowind system. It encourages you to go out and make yourself better and it makes it last longer since you don't just grind it out in all of a few hours(unless your skills are maxxed.)

Even with only using restoration magic, you are still using magic. My bosmer knows two spells, healing and the heal others spell. I'm just now getting her magicka up but that is at level 32 after she has all of the archery perks. I haven't perked anything but smithing and archery. She's not doing the mages guild or the thieves guild. She's not into magic only as a helpful measure when she needs it in battle and she's not a thug, hired assassin yes, thug no. She sees the thieves guild as a bunch of Mavis Black-Briars thugs.

There was a game a few years back called Freelancer. Now this game was like a space Version of Red Dead Redemption. You had one pre-decided character, but you could shape him however you want.

But to virtually extend the games time, you were given random quests that had you perform objetives at random. Blow up a space station, hunt a high target fella, get some cargo.

Your thing went like this: Your ally had to dig up some old contacts and in the meantime, you should try and get some money, that or get approval from the faction that is in power.

This extended the games time, gave you skills, and helped you prepare for the later levels. I wouldn't have anything wrong with them telling us that our faction is in low standings in these areas(maybe say a hold or two) and I want you to fix that.

Just a thing to consider. We have the potential to make each of the faction questlines a lot bigger.

Yep, My bosmer was a thief on the way to Riften when she got picked up by the imperials. She killed gerder, took her clothes and money, they used it to head off to Riften and join the thieves guild. When she got caught by the Huscarl in Dragon reach when she went there to use the enchanting table, she sprouted some crap about being a messenger from Helgen, but headed the other way and left when the Huscarl's back was turned.

She is on the way to Solitude now to chase down a lead for the thieves guild, but my join the legion while she is there.

And guess what? No dragons. You can play a no-name character and ignore the MQ, the same as oblivion.

HA! You guys kill me
So are scrolls and staves. But only spells represent the learning that the College is interested in.
The purpose is simply to inform, should someone else want to do the same. Not a complaint, not a boast.
With the character I did this with (whom I retired shortly thereafter), nothing stands in her way. 100 Smithing with all perks, 66 or so in One-Handed; Giants die in one or two DW power attacks, and Draugr Overlords are no more dangerous than Restless Draugr are to a low-level character. She wears 130-skill-improved Dragonscale armor and weilds 130-skill-improved swords, one Daedric, one ebony. She's a Dark Elf with an additional 37% resistance to Fire, making her about 13% susceptible to fire (87% resistant). She wears a piece of jewelry which grants an additional 30% damage to one-handed attacks. Her helm is a Dragon Priest mask (Volsung, I think, the one that grants Underwater breathing, among other effects) and her Stone Sign is The Lady, for increased Health and Stamina regen. And she has her faithful merc Jenassa at her side, decked out in a 100-skill-improved set of Dragonscale Armor (with helm and shield), and a 100-skill-improved Daedric sword. OK So that's a little bit of boasting, but I also know that there's room for improvement.
Hence the problem with it
I just started a new character last night, a Bosmer Thief no less. She escaped Helgen and then turned around and went right back through it, heading towards Riften. Got lost more than once and almost wound up in Windhelm (took a wrong turn at Mzulft, of all places).

I did exactly the same thing, I hardly use magic, I'm a sword and shield guy and still manage to become arch mage, it was the same with Oblivion. It would be kind of cool if it was like Morrowind but people would get annoyed not being able to do certain quests because of the skills etc they chose :/

How is Skyrim any different? You have to grind skills you don't want to get perk points to use on the skills you do want, and that's actually forced on you.

Oh, Bethesda didn't ruin their game. They did, and they should have to live with it. Bethesda is already ignoring all the people complaining about how quests are unfinishable for role-playing reasons, so how would that be any different?

Listen, the people in Skyrim weren't made to lick your boots. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean they should simply disregard every rule in the book and allow you to have your way. Even in a fantasy setting, warriors are not going to let you join them if you are not a warrior. Aela makes that perfectly clear if you aren't capable of even helping them finish off the giant near Whiterun. The same goes for mages and thieves. The game may be about you, but the world shouldn't bend its knees to your will, just so you can sit on your couch and do whatever you want, like you're playing in a sandbox. This is an RPG. You should be free to decide whatever role you'd like to play, but only as long as it abides by the rules of the world in which you inhabit. If there were no rules, you'd be better off using your imagination and saving $60.

+ =

So far I haven't been able to arrive soon enough to help with killing the giant. Is there a trick to that? No matter how I try to maneuver this, my toons always arrive just as the giant dies. Either option in Aela's convo is mostly "yeah, wannabe.... don't bother me...."

I've only played 2 Bethesda games (Fallout 3 and Skyrim) and it seems to me that Bethesda is more interested in us experiencing the game's story than beating the $*** out of us difficulty-wise. When I started this game I believe I saw 5 difficulty levels (Novice < Apprentice < Adept < Expert < Master)...maybe in future games if you chose Expert or Master then you cannot do certain faction-based quest-lines unless you 'fit' in.

FWIW: I, too, found it odd that I'm now Arch Mage of the College having only cast 7-8 spells (1 to cross the bridge, the fire and frost ones to open the doors, and then 3-5 to aim the crystal).

At the end of it all, like some people have mentioned, just omit the quests you don't care for or feel right RPing. I'm not doing $*** in RIften on my first character until they let me burn it to the f-ing ground in an expansion.

Well, you've done more to help than I have...I haven't seen anything like that.

Would these be the same people that would flip if a professional sports team didn't let them join because they can't actually play the sport?

A non-mage should no more be able to join a mage's guild then a couch potato that can't run 10 feet without being out of breath should be able to join the Giants.(unless you count towel boy as being a member...)

And some people have mentioned it, but no Thu'um should not count. Sure it's magic, but it's not the magic that's practiced by the College. It would be like letting someone onto a baseball team just because they're a good basketball player. They're both sports right? Well, we all know how that turned out when Michael Jordan tried it.

It's not that they choose not to use Thu'ums...it's that they can't, but, yeah, I do see your point. Bethesda should make it an Expert+ difficulty thing. I've seen other games do something similar. Maybe it was one of the Civilization games that on the lower levels you didn't have to do pre-reqs to get other techs. :\

Why can't they? There's even supposed to be an entire College dedicated to Thu'um founded by Tiber Septim himself:

"(and who later created the Imperial College of the Voice in Markarth, returning the Voice to the art of warfare).[1]"

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu

It's only a religious belief that keeps those up in High Hrothgar from using their Thu'um for whatever. Nothing is physically stopping them.

Thank you for explaining your purpose, OP. I apologize for casting aspersions (look I made a pun) and should have ignored the back-pvssyr.

It's a college, not a guild.

I seem to remember the Greybeards saying something about being able to learn Thu'ums if you're not a Dragonborn, but didn't it take them a lifetime and, even then, not everyone is capable? Almost like it's too big of a risk to waste one's life and maybe never learn?

Guild: 2. An association of people for mutual aid or the pursuit of a common goal.

It's both.


Yeah it's harder if you're not Dovahkin, but so is regular magic. I seem to remember reading something about needing about 30 years to be able to master just the very basics of magic schools.

Ouch! I better get started on my Mage character.

What I liked about the shouts, was the big, neverending quest of discovering the ancient words.

Magic should be alwyas trated like this in games. It should be something difficult to discover and master. Too bad, 99% of the time is: you pick a book, you learn a new spell; you advance a level and you gain magic powers.

Indeed, didn't the grey beards even mention that any one can use it? It just takes non dragonborn decades and decades to learn? However the people who say it should count are sorta right, because thats not the kind of magic they teach and learn at the college.

They can partially justify it by means of being Dragonborn - the Thu'um. Doesn't explain why we're always given an administrative title. Sure, the Dovahkiin might be the new Underking but that hardly means we need to run every guild in Skyrim.

Dragon shouts are both a language and magic. The college recognizes this.

Sure, but you only need to know ONE shout to become archmage. You don't even have to be good at it (e.g. just one word of the shout). And I believe you don't need to know any spells if you use scrolls and staves. One shout, no spells, and that's it.

This is like a College of Mathematics making someone dean who has a tremendous potential at math and learns it easily. Note they don't have to know much math at all, just have the potential to learn it. Oh, and they own a calculator. This makes no sense.


Years to learn a shout. Not a lifetime. Now learning multiple shouts would take longer, but it something people can certainly do. Sounds like regular magic in this regard...though possibly easier in some respects (don't need any particular stat in game terms, that might mean something in lore terms).

Breath and focus... It seems some sort of concentration is needed in addition to knowledge of the ancient tongue, otherwise any misplaced word would cause destruction. Probably, this is the hard part that Dragonborns can skip in their Th'um training.

It's interesting to note that the Greybeards removed themselves from the world because their speaking can harm other people. Dragons can speak the ancient tongue just fine and choose to harm or not those in front of them. Also Draugr can speak the ancient tongue and shout. Only the Graybeards don't seem to be able to do the two things at once without wreak havoc.

Some lost knowledge, maybe?

So much is thrown at us so fast I forget a lot of things - and this is my first TES game so I'm learning the history slowly. :\

The Greybeards hold the 'translation' ability, right? No one else has access to it which is why so few people know or can learn the Thu'uns?