Well lets see, where to begin.

I Love Skyrim and I even have the collector's edition and it's a great game. A recent fight though has made me make an account here, away from UESP, because I have something I need to get off my chest and I want Bethesda to hear it.

Anyone familiar with "MiracleofSound" on Youtube I'm not sure if you heard his "Sovngarde" Song which he made in honor of this great game. Now don't get me wrong it's a great song however,

when I suggested to him that he change just a few lyrics, he and all his fans attacked me. In part of his lyrics you hear "Sons of the Snow" and "These Men of the North" I had asked him he changed it to "Children of snow" "Children of the North" as it encompasses both genders.

A lot of males didn't like this. To them using Men and Sons holds more power than using Women and daughters. It went into a war where even though I was making up a valid point, they didn't want to hear it and even Miracle didn't like the suggestion/critique and he felt as though I was insulting him which I wasn't. I was however argueing with some of his fans.

They did bring up a valid point though. In the Dragonborn song, sung in the dragon language, -there is NO mention of a female just a male-

And in the dragon language you will find "King" "husband" "Man" but you will not find "Woman" "Wife" "Queen" you'll find "Maiden" and "Princess" but that is it. The akaviri predicted the Dragonborn to be male, and every main character for Bethesda by default has been Male. However the language leaves out female as does the songs.

What is ironic is the Great Hero Gormlaith Golden-Hilt is a female and out of her party of 3 was the only one with balls enough to jump onto a dragon's back and give him the final blow before she faces Alduin and he kills her. Before her brother was adamamant that Feldir the Old do not use the kell, Elder Scroll, To defeat Alduin. The moment she dies he looses that goal and encourages feldir to use the scroll.

There are women heroes in Sovngarde and players can pick to choose a female character, so why is there no word in the dragon language to describe Female, Wife, Queen etc?

Obviously many gamers feel that men are more important and men hold power. Yet when I play Skyrim I see that Bethesda has made many men Lazy Stupid Racist Alchoholics. The only thing these guys do is drink their wive/sister/parents money away. Birna in Winterhold who runs the shop, her lazy good-for-nothing brother drinks all of -her- money away because he's so pitiful about the woman he loves leaving him. Alot of old men stop working saying they are too old to work yet the women continue to do so. 2 are alchemists 1 in Dawnstar and 1 in Solitude while there is a Jewler in Whiterun wive of the best smith in SKyrim.

I don't mean to start a fight here especially this being my first post but I do not understand why, bringing up these points, that I get mauled by every single male who feels as though I'm being "too Harsh". Some have gone even so far to tell me that "Women serve men, women served men for many years, women are not allowed to say anything!"

I don't think that's fair and I don't think Bethesda should support this. I think there needs to be a gender neutralization of both the Dragonborn song and in the Dragon Language.

Here is an easy to read dragon language: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Language

like.. what?

Skyrim uses the words 'Sons Of Snow' as it embodies all Nords, just the way 'Man' embodies all Humans. I dont think people attacked as much as you are making out, simply fo making a suggestion. But yeah, Sons Of Snow, its an accepted term.

Briinah means Sister in Dragon language

Brii means Beauty, so Dragons see females as the embodiment of beauty

So no, there is no "We Hate Women" Bethesda conspiracy.

Nothing wrong with gender identification in song lyrics. I guess you think the Beetles should have sang "They love you, ya, ya,ya".

I find it odd that while you made a long post with a very good point, you absolutely failed to give the thread a title of the same caliber, not telling the other forum users what it the thread is about at all.

As a result, you don't get any mature responses, but instead just nonsense posts like this remarking on the title, rather than on what's of importance, the essence of your post and the point you're trying to make.

You're completely welcome to join the other women here who have been making the case that a LOT of women are gaming and need to be considered right along with the guys who play. I can say that things are better than they used to be. Maybe some day there will be a fully clothed female heroine on the gamebox. That would be huge. There actually could have been a female Dovahkiin on the box with the male Dovahkiin...would've been so inclusive. Welcome to the forums. Please, have a http://images.uesp.net//c/c4/Fishystick.jpg

Without letting Political Correctness determine a games content, a couple things to keep in mind. Bethesda games have always had strong female characters. Not in the sense of being able to kick butt, though they can do that, but in the sense of a person who is strong and capable. Also, being that there are no Gender Differences other than appearance and some dialog snippets, Female and Male characters are equally capable of being successful at the game.

As for the song, it is a historical ditty and it's origins are lost in the sands of time. Well, maybe not that far back, but the world was less cosmopolitan back then, so women were given a secondary role in the histories. Plus, the Dragonborn was a man, so it makes sense to call him that in the song.

I am not flaming you, but political correctness should not revise history. Facts should.

....Nothing to get angry about, stand up for your rights I guess. I don't really think you should care about this kind of stuff. What you want Bethesda to change the default to female? Won't change a thing. I'm still going to want change to male. Do you want Bethesda to change all the lore so that females are in it? Yea good luck with that. They won't change the songs just so it could be female and male. That's just absurd. If you want a song changed I really don't know how you are going to do that.

I'm trying not to flame, but if you try and get "female rights" in a video game you aren't gonna win against a majority of men. Unless you count that NHL game.

So you want a transixual for the box art? Or two people? Or just an outline?

I understand what your getting at, but there really isn't a logical way to do this. I wouldn't care if they depicted a female as the dragon born. But until you get more of your girlfriends into gaming, this won't change.

Come on, you must have heard that Beatles song before.

We don't live in a perfect world; so do the people of Skyrim. Both are male worlds; whatever has been done or will be done won't change a thing to this situation: women will always be looked down. So changing words in a fantasy song...

I'm talking about on Youtube. The guy, he may be a great singer but he's an overall jerk if you even give him suggestions to make his songs better. You see rather than listen to my points, and even -after- he challenged me to change some of his lyrics which I offered my input yet he ignored it, he told me to "Yell at Bethesda" instead.

I know "Man" embodies all humans, however "Men" and "Son" are really gender specific. You can't immiedatly tell that the Dragonborn song is just about a man not a woman because if you don't know the language ((I still don't and I have to use my book or UESP for translation)) you wouldn't know it. However the Dragonborn song is way more acceptable than just singing "These Men of the North" Because I can easily add "There is no women in Skyrim or on video games"

I actually thought otherwise in the sense that I thought Skyrim Folk didn't have Gender differences in culture, you see Male and Female rulers, adventurers, smiths (Alvor raising his daugther to be a smith?) a little assassin Girl? Legates? not once in the game have I seen Women being treated in the undertow to be honest.

Unokitsune, I don't think this is a battle worth fighting. "Gender neutralization" is a concept that chooses to take offense, on the whole, in my opinion. It is the idea that "Men of the North", means "Males of the North only may participate. Take a powder, females, we don't need your participation, raise the kids and cook dinner", instead of meaning, simply "Men (meaning the race of Man) of the North".

In other words, you're looking to wave a banner and fight the good fight, whether or not anyone has intended to offend, because you're choosing an interpretation that supports your sense of being offended. I do not support the culture of victimhood.

In my opinion, it is an issue that needs attention only if the context of the thing is degrading somehow to women, and I do not see that. Omission of 'specific equal time' is a laughable excuse to choose to take offense, in my opinion. I see nothing in the context that supports misogyny.

I hope you understand that this is not an attack or a derogatory series of comments. It is my opinion, based on considered thought about the issue.

I changed the title of the thread to better reflect the purpose of your post.

I also removed the off topic posts that your original title caused.

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I will let this thread cook for a bit here and see what happens.

Lots of women in Skyrim fighting and kicking butt with their women-shaped armor. It's very equal.

Seeing as the biggest demographic for computer games are teenage boys designers will generally try to suit games around that. It's not that designers are being sixist or anything its just marketing. There are plenty of female gamers out there but being realistic would a game about hacking and slashing down undead and dragons appeal more to a group of males or a females? It's a macho thing, and apparently (I have heard it) a macho song.

"daughters of skyrim"

I hear that a lot.

Ever heard of mankind?

I understand your point, but making a deal about it won't solve anything anytime soon. It's common so I guess live with it.

Not saying women and men aren't equal.

Are they not a patriarchal society in Skyrim?

i think youll find that 15th century scandinavian society wasnt exactly the land of tolerance and equality. that said i dont think i can believe people would get so misogynistic over a suggestion for slightly different lyrics; get stupidly defensive sure, but anyone defending it saying that it is appropriate for women to have no recognition in a song about a game where plenty of women kick ass has to be trolling.

the dragons are for all i know mono-gendered, so they wouldnt have a word for man or woman, just a word for those pathetic mortal slaves who seem to divide themselves between fat hairy ones and scrawny ones with squishy chests. so really, your suggestion of a gender neutral lyric is indeed much more appropriate. were people really flaming you over that? id expect that kind of behaviour from bioware fan boys maybe, but fans of some dude who occasionally does songs for the escapist?

i personally think it is appropriate for men to be dominate in fantasy games because its a more draconian culture, but if really sparks this kind of misogynistic behaviour over something so harmless as a perfectly valid suggestion, i dont know.

Alot of this male dominating the game industry bugs me also and I am a guy.... LOL Even all the trailers for games. The protagonist is made and shown as a male, even if you can choose to be either. I think the game industry needs to get their heads out of the 50s and come back to modern day.

"Dragonborn, Dragonborn by HIS honour is sworn." There you go? The guy may be a jerk and he certainly has no right to get all worked about a suggestion to his lyrics, but all im saying is in Skyrim, Men is the term used, because Skyrim is a very masculine land, and yes i have had my ass handed to me more times than i'd like by a woman on that game, but if the guy used "Sons Of Skyrim" thats because its a term used in the game, and hes not going to go against lore, especially if its dedicated to the game directly.

Not when several Jarls are women, and their daughters may take over the position in a hereditary succession

Tomb Raider

Let's please keep all responses to this thread civil. There's nothing wrong with discussing sixism in the game, and providing it's handled with proper care I think it's a legitimate topic to discuss concerning the community.

In my experience, with an unfortunate few exceptions the community here has been very welcoming of female gamers.