Stats and Skills govern how your warrior plays. It doesn't matter what "class" you want to play, it wil lwork with anythign you can come up with, you'll just have to accept you can't do everythign perfectly and have to be willing to accept the conquences of your choices. That really makes for better character development then generic godly character that do everything perfectly.

stats Give you bonus' to there relevent skills. Skills themselves goven how well your character performs. stats accent skill use.

Um, you brought it up, not me. You said that players playing outside their class was a problem in those mods. I agreed, and said it's also a problem in how vanilla Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim work. So what then is your problem with those mods if you don't actually think they should be changed in such a way to minimize leveling skills solely for the level-up bonuses?

'Fixed' attributes is probably the best way to do it, as it eliminates inane character behaviors, although in the case of TES there's also the racial aspect to consider. As anyone who's familiar with the lore knows, each race has a different set of basic values for the various attributes, which is reflected in some being higher or lower than others in each race's basic template. it is, of course, possible to go against said template, but it generally takes quite a bit of work; a 'fixed' system would make this impossible, as there would be insufficient increases available with which to do so, which reduces character diversity within a given race.

That said, I'd still go with such a system, as it can't really be 'gamed' as long as things such as current H/M/S levels are not increased based on the current state of a given attribute.

Skyrim is FAR less affected by such behavior for many reasons. Ergo, I consider the system as working much better than past games. There's far less benefits and far less need in Skyrim to cross "class" train skills to get benefits in your class skills in the first place. The efforts you need are huge for little reward.

"Skill" makes for a very bland game. TES needs to balance "Skill" and traditional RPG elements. That is what made the game thrive. Without the Skill component, it is just another RPG. Without the traditional RPG elements, it is just an action adventure game with Swords and Magic. Attributes do not pigeon hole you. If you wanted to play a hybrid, you would invest in stats that lend themselves say to a Mage and Warrior. It is no different than now how you invest in Perks related to the Mage tree and Warrior tree. The problem is that it DOES rely too heavily on the "Skill" side which provides for repetitious and shallow gameplay. We need lots more spells, defensive tactics, and offensive abilities/skills. These are ACTIVE abilities however, so they are STILL "Skill" or twitch related, however their effectiveness (read magnitude) is modified by traditional RPG values.

To give you an idea of something that has been beneficial for the series, removing chance to hit as an item value or hit check and instead making THAT "twitch based" entirely, was positive. Taking blocking and making that active is also positive. The removal of attributes, does hinder the game somewhat. I don't think they needed to eliminate them, they just needed to clean them up a bit and form a hybrid system - not a PERK only system.

Thats why I suggested the "semi-static" part. So y oucould increase stats but it's hard to do and only happens with lots of effort, and generally speaking is more of an impact. H/M/S in my Idea would be a factor of level and the relevent stats adding in a bonus. (D&D system to a point.) stat increases being retroactive can go either way for me. In this system make characters that fit "outside the box" are possible but need lots of work. Like they should.


That part is debatable, however since that method is the "norm" for TES series and not an more classical RPG Iwon't really harp on it too much. Leave it that I much perfer the character skill over the player skill aspect when it comes to RPG's.

There is no need whatsoever to cross-class train in Morrowind. The enemies peak out at something like thirty and you can handle them easily by level 20. The only reason anyone ever cross classed trained in Morrowind was to get things done faster or simply because they could. Oblivion was different because the effed up level scaling could leave less dedicated players in the dust. Skyrim seems to me more like Morrowind, in terms of cross class training need. It's not really necessary, but a large number of people do it anyways because it's the only way to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fWvub_WBho.

If you're interested in minimizing the number of people who cross-class train, stricter classes are really the only way to do it. If you're not, then there isn't any substantial difference between Morrowind in Skyrim in this regard. The differences that remain are between the nature of perks and attributes, functionally and conceptually.

Opinions.

True but what does it have to do with attributes vs skills?

True but that's not the problem here. Fixed or mostly fixed at birth attributes pigeon hole you.

Now, this just doesn't make sense AT ALL. You'll need to explain yourself better how you can say that with a straight face.

This doesn't make sense at all either. Attributes do not give you more spells or defensive tactics or ANYTHING. All they give you is bonuses to tasks.

Ok, from what I understand, you are saying that since Skyrim relies a lot of the avatar skills, then it directly translates into the game relying a lot on the player gaming skills and thus it is a shallow repetitive twitch gameplay game. Practically every single word in that sentence is wrong. Good job!

Much needed changes in my opinion. I enjoy more my RPG games with high chances to fail because it makes for a boring and bland gameplay.

Err no. Attributes or not is completely orthogonal to everything you said.

Of course. Why couldn't I see it! It's all the fault of the scaling system in Oblivion. In Morrowind you didn't need to cross train because playing a Destruction/Restoration/Alteration mage was perfectly viable with 0 skills that improved Int. And what about the fun of the 30 Str carry limit through the whole game? But yeah, unless you got critical deficiencies in End, Int and Str, game was so well tuned everything felt like fighting mudcrabs when you reached level 20. Until you visited the expansion pack areas that is.

I think we didn't play the same Morrowind game you and me

Would you still feel forced to do all that stuff if you didn't know how attributes were handled in the first place? The game could just show you a number and thats it. Just do what you like and those numbers will change accordingly. Why care about them? If you want to become the absolute master of hammers then just use hammers, simple.


About the old hammer master lady: You really can't do this in a system without attribute/skill degradation. You can only make a build that resembles it at the start but then the more you use the hammer the stronger you would get. It works like that in the real world too (well not exactly, an old lady would die sooner from a heart attack while practicing than regain her lost hammer talent -this is unnecessary complexity for a game-).

I propose a completely dynamic but behind the scenes attribute/skills system where you get to pick perks when you level (some perks can be already there some could be found in the game world itself). Now, about Health, Magicka and Stamina. First we have to define what those meters are supposed to tell.

Health? It is used to tell how tough a character is. Realistically this should change very little if at all (some can simply take more punishment than others). What should make your character feel tougher is the fact that he gets better at protecting himself. Here is a good opportunity to introduce a race connection (orcs can be tougher from birth).
Magicka is supposed to tell the magic power of the character. Now this should change more, depending on the time you spent practicing magic obviously. Maybe we need the introduction of a magic attribute that tells how in tune your character is with everything magic.
Stamina is also a measure that can change a lot. It definitely has to do with duration of things, like how much time can you keep on running/fighting. Its the physical counterpart of magicka in a sense. It actually directly relates to an endurance attribute.

So there you have it. All those things being behind the scenes gives the player a clear message: Don't worry about them, just do whatever the hell you want and the game will acknowledge it. Of course there will be those that will say that just because they can't manage explicitly every aspect of their character by tuning numbers it's no longer an RPG but whatever, ignore them, it would actually be a real Role playing game.

II don't want to be goldly, I simply want some variety in how my characters play and I feel systems which focus on skills fulfill this desire better than those which focus on stats. Counter-classes, indirect classes and unspecialised classes almost always suffer when placed next to 'pure' classes in stat-heavy games and that's infuriating as it requires the developers to balance the hardest parts of the game for those who are not the best players, but those who have simply planned out the best spreadsheets.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Oblivion's level scaling was definitely a major contributor towards forcing attribute grinds. If you didn't, the constantly scaling world would often exceed the player character's abilities. They dialed this back somewhat in Skyrim. I can at least kill things in a few blows now, whereas some fights could take a couple minutes in Oblivion unless I snapped and tuned the difficulty way down.

On Morrowind, you're defining classes in a very narrow manner (more narrowly than the game itself does). If you only focus on skills governed by a single attribute you're liable to run into problems. That's no different in Skyrim, though. Focus only on crafting and you might not have the combat chops to succeed. Same goes for focusing entirely on sneak or pickpocketing. My thief character was done by level 18 in Skyrim as my archery simply could not keep up with how quickly my pickpocketing and sneak had leveled and I was constantly having to game the AI to survive. That's simply what happens when you specialize to that degree. You're necessarily going to run into problems as soon as you find yourself outside that narrow comfort zone.

I also think it's a little dishonest to compare Morrowind's magicka system to Skyrim's. There's some pretty extreme differences that have nothing to do with the leveling system in place.

Well you sorta could if you factor in stuff like dieseses, and perhaps even an "old age" dieses type of thing that hits you with flat penities. However they woudl have to be above and beyond wha twe see dieses play in skyrim.



Having attributes doesn't deter any variety, it actually increases variety. You'll star tto see colorful characters that have interesting flaws and quirks. Generic is really the variety killer I think. It only makes for shallow and ultimately godly characters.

oops Double post.

theres nothing wrong with the new system. All that is missing is the Unarmed combat skill tree as far as I am concerned.

I feel they are, and have been...

Stats are generic. WoW, for example, has a variety of classes but almost every major fight in the game is won by some form of Holy Trinity setup (tank, healer, DPS). There is no variety or flexibility and players aren't playing the game, they're manipulating spreadsheets and watching the numbers. There's no tension, no excitement and no adaptability.

I think you should try playing the games you mock one of those days. WoW might have made most encounters very easy but it wasn't always the case and beating the hard encounters when your team doesn't have a good statistical advantage through stuff alone still requires quite some player skills.


A plan is a good thing but it's not enough if you cannot execute it properly.

XD stats aren't generic, having a uniform black slate that not effected by anything is generic. I don't care what WOW does or doesn't do. I can point to other games that use stats to great effect too.

I played WoW for years (okay, less than two, but more than one =P). I feel it has many strengths but the Trinity is something I feel as though I've outgrown. I don't enjoy it. I won't criticise those who continue to enjoy WoW and games like it, but I feel justified in pointing out what I see as its failings and the repetitious nature of many encounters.


Starting with a blank slate isn't 'generic' because what you do with that blank slate, the picture you design on it, is going to be different from the next person's. Giving three people exactly the same 'Warrior' sheet is generic.

The trinity is getting boring yes but the post I was replying was rather extreme in it's WoW criticism. I'm just waiting to try Guild Wars 2 which is a game that's REALLY getting rid of the trinity.

Yes, I'm sure everyone knows you can equip different weapons. You could do that in all the other games too.
Yep. They added dual wielding. Neat.
Congratulations. Now try it without the weapon swapping shell-game. You'll find that there are severe limitations for varieties of fighters - which is why you need to switch weapons. Oblivion had 10x as many possible combinations just by virtue of strength and speed. ((100 Strength * 100 Speed) * 3 Weapon Types * 2 Fighting Styles) = 60,000 possible fighters, 10,000 per Weapon/Fighting Style. Exponentially more with Endurance and Luck. Skyrim has (29+19+13 = 53)^2 = 2,809 across all fighting styles, or (13^2)+(25^2)+(((15^2)*2)*3)*3 = 6432 across all weapon types and fighting styles - including redundant and impossible combinations, as well as the Block tree. 4 of the Perks in Skyrim's weapon trees are present in Oblivion, and at least 2 of the weapon-specific perks are virtually useless according to the UESP, so it'd be really hard to argue that these 0.10x fighters have 10x as much variation, especially when reaching the previous margin of difference requires switching weapons. With only 5-6 general and 3*(3-4) weapon\fighting-style specific perks in the tree, and nearly all of the difference being in damage calculation with no bearing on handling, it is no wonder people think all the characters feel the same: There is at least 89.2% less flexibility\variation.
I'll say.. Come back with an actual reply once you've changed your underwear.
Again:
1. The racial bonus to different attributes did make it possible to play characters for or against their strengths, which is no longer possible. It took more effort for a Breton to develop as a fighter than it did for an Orc or Redguard, and that distinction mattered to some players. The post I was responding to claimed that attributes did not add depth. This is one way in which they did.
2. The luck attribute did make it possible to play characters who were extremely lucky or unlucky, especially with mods, and this did make a significant difference in practice (See: Gaenor). It also also contributed to the depth of the character, and is no longer possible.
3. It is a fact that modders could make scripted events interact with player attributes to determine the outcome of an event. Lots of realism mods did this, and I'm sure some quest dialogues did too. If modders want to do that now, they have to use your combat-relevant attributes, skills, or some custom metric embedded in the mod itself. Removing features in a game like TES does not remove content, it removes potential content.
4. You do have to live within the boundaries defined by your skills and derivatives. The attributes in TES rarely limited anyone directly, only through their skills and derivatives which are both still limiting factors.

Fact is, removing attributes took away a layer of character definition. Expanding on the perk system by adding branches to the tree is nice and all, but arguing that one precludes the other is a false dichotomy when the two have co-existed in pretty much every game between Diablo 2 and Skyrim. Next time, try not to defecate in the middle of a public forum. Thanks.

Oh hell yes. I want that game more than Skyrim DLC. Guess how many attributes there are? Four. Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality. Every class has a plethora of skills to choose from, can hotswitch weaponry and can adapt wonderfully in battle. It is impossible to make a Mesmer with Morrowind or Oblivion's system... but you can aproximate it with Skyrim.

Agreed, attributes are certainly in Skyrim.

Also, on the whole 'player' skill vs 'character' skill issue :

Every game, unless it is a movie or a game that has zero choices, is primarily 'player' skill driven. This is why you have a controller or mouse and keyboard at your disposal. I understand the difference, and the argument, but this is a real non-argument for me when it comes to gaming. The character is a vehicle for the player's adventure, and I'm not sure there has ever been a game where that dynamic is reversed. Attributes are ultimately decided by the player, not the character. Choices are ulitmately decided by the player, not the character.

I look at the removal of 'attributes' in the bulletpointed in your face, spreadsheet style as a good thing. Indeed, it actually supports the "character skill" argument in some sense by not being so accessible.

You asked how to represent an agile quick swordman vs a brute force oriented swordman in Skyrim system. That's what I did. If you don't agree, don't make cuts in your quote and explain why. Btw, the dual wield works better if you go "sword + dagger" for agile/quick build. You really feel more like it.

Ok, you shouldn't throw numbers like that to confuse the readers. It doesn't work. Everyone can see how much bs is what you just said. At the minimum, you should explain stuff like the "(13^2)+(25^2)+(((15^2)*2)*3)*3" part because I just doesn't make any sense at all XD

Racial bonuses were and still are minor effects that are absorbed by level up bonuses in a short time anyway. Was it in past TES games or in Skyrim. Well, except in Daggerfall : High Elf immunity to paralysis was just unmatched to


I never said we cannot have attributes and perks btw so don't go putting words in my mouth. I say that Morrowind and Oblivion attributes are a good ridance because skills do nearly everything they did better and with more customisability for our roleplay.