What does that link say to me except that the supernatural ghost can have a range of different powers? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ancestor_Guardian is more appropriate. Also the ideal of the Dunmers' is fundamentally different. They are willing spirits of their ancestors that aid them when needed. I am not giving them too much credit at all. I am waiting for you to give me a better argument than Berserk=win for the orcs. A horde of summoned ghosts more than capable of harm is not something to be taken lightly.

If you read that article it never claimed anywhere they were an effective militaristic fighting force on of themselves. They were useful in small numbers in specific situations. I say the orcs are incapable of strategy so long as you cling to the idea that the berserk ability is the primary means of their ability to win a battle. Study military tactics a bit and see just how effective berserkers really are. You claim there effectiveness when there is nothing to substantiate it. I asked you to justify and show how any 'berserker' armies, which have never existed, are effective in a pitched battle between two armies? They were used in small units for specific tasks but never as a cohesive force. There usefulness is and always was limited.
The above shows how they were capable of great things but once the heat of the moment took them they would be more of a hindrance than an asset to any military unit. Try and google berserker armies or any variation on that and tell me what you get. Again I say the Orcs berserk power is both boon and bane. I would not say the Orcs get feeble afterwards as I would assume the Orcs are made of sterner stuff but the idea is that they are unreliable shock troops at best when fitted into their traditional role. Get them out of that role.

I guess this is necessary. I made assumptions that people would understand where I was coming from with the racial powers. That was not a great idea. In my defense I was studying for Finals and have only gotten 20 hours or so of sleep this week.

1. How realistic do you want to be? Are we to pretend this is the real world now?

You did engage in a discussion of who is better between two fictional races with me...Of course it is not the real world but real world tactics can still apply so long as you use them correctly. I am asking you to be realistic in your reasoning. Within the context of a fantasy world. Yes that is possible. Recognize the validity of someones argument unless you can refute it. If you would refute the usefulness of being able to double your man power with arguably powerful ghosts, that seems as if it could give immense tactical advantage when used appropriately in a battle, then I would easily say that the Orcs would in all likelihood defeat the Dunmer in an open conflict on an open plain. But if you add the flexibility and numbers off the ancestral ghosts I see no way that any race could beat the Dunmer in such a conflict.

2. Which games, and if all, what parts are discounted? Surely you don't intend for orcs to have three berserks, and Dunmer to get three different racials? Maybe you do. Also if all three games, are they male or female (it actually changes stats).

Gender does not matter, it only changed attributes in any case, not skills. We are focusing on the race as a whole. Use what is shown in the lore to be true for their abilities and powers. Then infer how this could be a trait that does not have measurable statistics like double damage and 75% or 50% fire resistance. Instead we will call them by more realistic notions of those powers as I outlined earlier. Dunmer are not 75% resistant to fire they are just heavily resistant to it. We will take that as a well placed fireball with direct impact would likely kill or severely damage them. AoE fire spells though quickly become useless unless they directly hit a target. Dunmer can summon beings that are about of equal strength as themselves known as ancestor ghosts. Orcs have some small resistance to magicka that makes them shake off the occasional spell and survive the occasional fireball or lightning bolt. Orcs can also enter a berserk state in which they are much more fearsome than normal. However they become clumsier and more rash once in that state.(sound good?)

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dunmer are shown to be a disciplined, highly effective and flexible fighting force composed of a mix of lightly and heavily armored soldiers. They have respected archers, swordsmen, mages, and mixes of the three. They are resistant to fire and can call on their ancestors for aid. This is described in the lore. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc are shown to be feared and incredibly effective heavily armored shock troops that can go berserk in battle and are great with blunt and two handed weapons. Yes they are fearsome. But they are mostly limited to close quarters combat and somewhat decent archery at best. There is no tradition of them being great with bows or anything of the sort. Their magic is limited and they are not very powerful mages though there are exceptions. Is it mentioned anywhere other than in the gameplay that they can resist magic to a small degree? If so they can have that but let us say it is not akin to the Bretons magicka resistance, it is much less effective and is a smaller factor. If it is not in the lore. Eff it they can have it anyways. I like Orsimer.

3. How large are the armies? How many people.

Somewhat irrelevant though having numbers do help. Depends, Ill let people pick if they like. Though I warn them the higher the number the bigger the advantage to the Dunmer with their ability to summon semi-permanent ghosts. But both need a fairly substantial number for it to be a race vs race battle on any scale. 1000-2000 soldiers to each side seems adequate. Neutral terrain such as a wide flat plain. We assume no reinforcements from anywhere other than the groups involved and their various powers and such. Morale can be broken and not everyone has to die.

Care to add to this?

I'm curious, Albino. Where in the lore, if anywhere, is it mentioned that EVERY Dunmer can summon the ghost of his ancestor at will and that this ghost is just as strong dead as it was when it was alive? Ancestor ghosts were pathetic enemies for any trained warrior in both Morrowind and Oblivion. I didn't play the former games but I'm guessing it's the same story. They're not scary, they're not strong, and they're not all that fire resistant.

If you want to remain credible, you'll need to tone your ghost characteristic down to be somewhat within a realistic scope of a fantasy game. You can't have ten thousand Dunmer spending five seconds each on summoning their strongest ever ancestor in ghost form and then have ten thousand ghosts appear that are all immortal, semi-permanent elite warriors. That's so far beyond sensible that Imperials using their voices seems reasonable by comparison. Never mind that the greatest ancestors are probably widely shared among ten thousand warrior Dunmer, which means the same ghost would come potentially dozens of times.

Personally, I see the ancestor thing as more of a spiritual connection with their ancestors. Some Dunmer can summon ghosts, some can use their connection to dodge better in combat, some use it to fuel a fireshield. Essentially, it manifests itself as various forms of innate spell-like abilities, comparable to what the Drow from Forgotten Realms can do. It doesn't cost magicka and it can be done by warriors and mages alike. Some can undoubtfully summon ghost "familiars", though of course a ghost form isn't the real thing. Many Dunmer can't summon ghosts, but maybe they can do other things. Some have strong control over it, some don't. It's not a cut-in-stone ability, just like Orc berserk isn't a uniform double damage dealt, half damage suffered among every single Orc.

Yeah, forcing the entire opposing army to flee does have it's benefits. The Imperials have a good one too: Why not make the entire enemy army pacifists while we kill them?

An army of 300 orcs taking half damage and dealing double can do the work of an army of 600.

I find the Nord or Orc are super powerful. The Nord has frost resistance so that is really helpful and the battle-cry believe is or not is super awesome when you want to chop the enemy down. Use it and they will all run in fear and you can destroy them easy enough. The Orcs Berserk makes you as strong as a giant, pretty hard not to die from one of your blows.

If we take racials into account, Imperials win. END OF STORY.

Dunmer, no matter how many [censored] ghosts they summoned, couldn't fight back. It doesn't matter if you say that those ghosts last forever, they're rendered UTTERLY USELESS when a single Imperial soldier decides to activate his racial.

And, considering the Dunmer get their ghosts permanently by your reasoning, then Imperials instantly make anybody in the range of Voice stop fighting and sheathe their weapon.

I'm weighing in for Argonians.

Not because of what happens on the battlefield, but because of how easy it is for them to hide and move around.
Imagine the strategic advantages of having your military encampments under water, traveling along rivers unseen. Also, disease killed far more soldiers than weapons in pre-modern warfare, though cure disease potions may play the roll of antibiotics on Nirn.

Altmer or Breton, none of the rest really compete.

Breton's magic resistance is extremely useful. Stacking upon that can make one completely immune to magic with little effort.

Altmer get five free mage levels and a huge regen boost. A little overpowered, really. They're also the fastest on their feet.

Uhm, guys? The OP is talking army vs army, not dovahkiin vs dovahkiin.

As a Skyrim player choice, I think it goes like this:
1) Breton
2) Nord
3) Dunmer
4) Orcs
5) Imperials
6) Redguards / Altmer / Argonian
7) Bosmer / Khajiit

Reasoning: Bretons effectively have a permanent 25% resist all. It mens 25% of all shock, frost, fire damage is discarded out of hand by naked Bretons, and once you add the right stone, a quest reward, and 2 perks in an Alteration perk, they reach the cap of 80% magic resistance, naked. Then you add whatever elemental resists you feel like on your equipment, maybe a shield and the elemental protection perk, and there you go, magic no longer hurts. Nords and Dunmer have much the same thing going for them with 50% resistance to an element, allowing them to reach the same immunity pretty much just as easily, but 25% resist all is more flexible, and so marginally better. Nords beat Dunmer because Warcry is better than some flame aura.

Next are Orcs because they have a minute of "I kill everything" per day, but ultimately that is exactly what it is, something that happens for one minute during a day. The default timescale is 30, I think, which translates their berserk into half an hour worth of rage in-game. Which still leaves 23.5 hours worth of non-rage, where their power does nothing. Imperials similarly have a good once-per-day power but that's effectively all they have. Orcs beat them because a minute's worth of killing everything is better than a single "stop attacking me!!"

Redguards, Altmer, and Argonians are on a shared sixth place becuse their powers essentially are nothing more than "near-infinite potions once per day". That's funny but it's not a game changer, particularly not when you get to the stage where you can afford buying potions. Okay, Altmer also have +50 magicka, which really isn't going to change all that many things. Effectively it translates into 50 less magicka you take on level-up and so presumably 50 more health. Not exactly a huge bonus.

Finally, Bosmer and Khajiits both have decidedly crappy racials. Bosmer can command animals and that might be funny in real life, but in this game it's hard to take avantage of it.Khajiit have infinite night vision, effetively meaning infinite invisible torchers. Not exactly amazing.

You HAVE to take the battlefield into consideration. Even saying 'a flat field' is throwing a MAJOR advantage to Orcs and a few other races. If it were a swamp, the Argonians would whoop ass easily. If it were a forest, particularly Valenwood, the Bosmer would rip the enemy to shreds.

You also have to take into account the diversity of different sub-species Argonians and Khajiit have, if you're going by lore at all. Battle-cats could probably turn a platoon into a pool of blood.

Another important factor is which game we're going by. In Oblivion Altmer had a weakness to magicka, but they had RESISTANCES before that. Likewise, the Dunmer had a crappy ghost in Oblivion, but now they have a crappy Fire Cloak spell.

There are so many factors, that saying anything would favor at least one race more than any other, so a fare fight CAN'T be formed. Unless we go by the ENTIRE continent, in which each race went back to it's province, split from the Empire, and declared war on everybody else. Even then, strategies have to be taken into account, and then we have to determine what constitutes a victory.

Would the Bosmer killing anybody that sets foot in Valenwood, and staying completely defensive for the duration of the war, count as a victory? Would the Orcs becoming nomadic and traveling the continent, killing every opposing force but conquering no land as they leave it for more battle, count as a victory?

In both Morrowind and Daggerfall they had elemental weaknesses but resistance to disease, which is mostly useless in out and out combat but useful in prolonged wars and obviously increases their lifespan.

As far as I know, Altmer never had outright resistance to magic. That was limited to Bretons and Orcs, with the latter having it in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

It's easier to say which is the worst race. That is of course, Imperials. I say Bretons, High Elves, and Nords are the best races, and many agree. And many also say Orcs are, though they are wrong because nothing that ugly can be good.

being totally fair, orcs, in this game the orc's beserk allows him to take half damage there for he can kill twice as many people before going down. in oblivion the redguard was the ultimate warrior but has been nerfed in a sense as his ability is utterly useless and the only reason i played as one is because i couldn't make a black nord, nords having superior abilities to redguards and imperials in combat.


wow who would have thought adrenaline rush would somehow simplify from super combat skills into a free stamina bar refill because the duration is too short

bretons are probably second or third depending on if he is fighting magic.

khajitt take 4th after breton or nord due to their natural unarmed ability that makes them mini werewolves.

dunmer place here their racial ability can be avoided and possibly canceled out by the races above.

High elves could potentially spam powerful magic

redguards because they aren't the worst but they aren't the best like they were but their power makes them useful when blocking (for about a minute)

bosmer are 8th because they have some combat ability and their whole animal thing

argonians sit here because they are last

Redguard+Dual Wielding+Racial power=Everything dead

Altmer powers are the best for a mage, IMO.

The +50 magicka boost and Highborn Power ensure that a number of Altmer can pretty much nuke the enemy into the orbit. Where a Breton has to slow down after casting, say, three fireballs the Altmer can hurl ten and still have magicka for healing.

[quote name='Black Spider' timestamp='1324091827' post='19813476']
I'm curious, Albino. Where in the lore, if anywhere, is it mentioned that EVERY Dunmer can summon the ghost of his ancestor at will and that this ghost is just as strong dead as it was when it was alive? Ancestor ghosts were pathetic enemies for any trained warrior in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

ghosts are immune to any weapon below silver.

If the Dunmer are so powerful... why did they lose to the Argonians?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4k91DC4yfm8/Tjf-__tuljI/AAAAAAAAAcc/3ojFOyYJEjs/s320/mind%2Bblown.jpg

because they were in disarray from a recent natural disaster. argonians could probably shrug off the thick cast of ash in the air.

Not in Skyrim.

First off this is not about a fair conflict. It is about who would be victorious on an open battlefield. Which is the most neutral terrain.

For that matter where in the lore does it say any of the races can use the powers that they do? Nowhere....So no berserk power, no warcry, no voice of the emperor, no highborn, no anything really if you want to get technical. In the Lore Sul actually summons an ancestor ghost as a native ability of the Dunmer. This was in one of the Novels. That is more credibility than ANY of the powers presented by the other races. This really is not even debatable. It is part of the Dunmers ability to be able to call on their ancestors for aid. I merely claimed one aspect of that power and left out the others. Sure I could say there is a hodgepodge of ways that the Dunmer can manifest their ability to receive aid from their ancestors but then there is a mixed army of flaming Dunmer, Dunmer who have unnatural abilities to dodge and those with ghostly summons. That is even more unfair as that makes the Dunmer host impossible to predict and gives them even more tactical advantage. A unit of Dunmer on fire bearing down on the enemy? Another unit of Dunmer that are difficult to hit? Another unit of Dunmer suddenly doubling its manpower ant attacking an unwitting enemy? Not to mention they are supposedly all very adept at destruction so they could then be blasting the enemy and peppering them with magic pinning them down. On top of that are the skilled swordsmen and archers that could pepper the enemy further with

As for the strength of the ghost? You are using the badly balanced games as a comparison? You can get killed by a rat at high levels in oblivion! Level scaling was a joke and is no comparison. Bandits can kill the Champion of Cyrodiil and are just as strong as most high level creatures in the game. Try ancestral ghost at level one vs normal NPC's(guards, bandits, whatever). See how it fares better then in Oblivion? It was not scalable and that is its bigger weakness in that game through poor design. In the books even normal ghosts and daedra are things to be feared. Not every single member of the race can do what the Dovahkiin, Nerevarine, or CoC can. The average warrior would get toasted and spitted by a normal draugr or bear. A summoned ghost would be quite a force to be reckoned with and frankly I think you are all selling it very very short with zero justification for it. Try inferring a bit before calling my creditability into question. Game does not = lore.

The powers in game are a representation of what they do in the actual lore. Every Dunmer can call on their ancestors. They use them to aid them. So yeah, if you want to say every Orc has the ability to go berserk, then every Dunmer can summon a ghost. If every Altmer is an extra powerful mage, then every Dunmer can summon an ancestor ghost.

These ghosts are effective. If you understand how military tactics work then you can see the applications of a highly mobile spectral army that every single one of your lowliest soldiers can summon to aid them in but a few moments. If you fail to see that then I question your credibility as someone who can understand basic tactics and your understanding of the lore.

I did not say they were invulnerable except in jest at the ridiculousness of people claiming all the powers from previous games. The Dunmer can have whatever number of ancestral ghosts in relation to the number of Dunmer. That is how it works. If it seems overpowered in a battle that is the whole point. It is. There are generations of dead Dunmer for them to call. There would be more than enough.
This is just opinion though one I do like. I do agree that it is more of a spiritual connection but that has no place in this discussion because then the Altmer would not all be great mages, nor orcs all great warriors, nor the Nords, nor the redguards. We are stereotyping here lol. We are making certain assumptions. In game all Dunmer can summon ghosts, all orcs can go berserk, etc etc. That will apply to this conflict.

About powers.

Nords Warcry does not automatically make everyone flee in terror. That is a gameplay mechanic. If it was used in battle it would possibly weaken morale and make an enemy more nervous. Though arguable that effect is lessened on seasoned troops considerably. They are experiecned fighters preferring light armors and heavy weapons. They can use heavier armors as well. They are resistant to frost.

Imperials Voice of the Emperor power is meant to show the persuasive nature of the Imperials in being able to calm people down. Especially when disputes between other races occur. That is why they have been so successful as a race in TES. Disciplined and experienced fighting force that has experience in all terrains and with fighting every race's armies.

Altmer in general instead of their various powers, skills and traits are just better mages most of the time. They have a little higher pool of magicka and can regenerate magicka faster. Long term strategists. Not great at sudden adaptation.(arguable)

Bosmer are resistant to poisons and disease. They can call animals to their aid though how that would actually function would be difficult to determine. Is it forced compulsion or more like a willingness to work with them? Forces compulsion means a willingness to face an army but when it wears off they will likely be upset. If it is a willingness to help then I do not really see hordes of deer and other animals rushing against an army willingly.

Bretons are good mages in general that have the added bonus of being resistant to a lot of the magicks thrown at them. Even absorbing a few. Historically they are great at espionage.

Redguards would have a resistance to poisons and the ability to sustain long term engagements. I am surprised more people did not choose them tbh. They would steamroll the orcs on an open plain imo.

Khajiit are arguably not very effective based on their powers alone unless it was an actual prolonged conflict. Their night vision would come in very handy for reconnaissance and such. One advantage they do have is if they lost their main weapons(which is actually a common thing on most battlefields) they would be able to fall back and use their claws.

Argonians would win any amphibious conflict hands down but not on an open plain. Resistance to disease and poison plus water breathing would not be very effective but feel free to make your points. Their histskin ability is where they might truly shine imo. I would say that they just regenerate health a bit faster than normal.

Orcs have berserk. I believe I have gone over why that is of little import but feel free to try and refute me on it. Bring a good argument or don't bother. They are a heavy armored warrior race that are experienced in warfare. They lack an ability to do damage at longer ranges.

Dunmer. Simply resistant to fire and each individual can summon a ghostly apparition to fight alongside them. This could enhance their prowess or just be another ally to help. They are a flexible race with a mix of sword archery and magic aplenty.

One last thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_tactics. Adapt them as you need them so they better fit a realm with magic.

Lets see some well thought out rebuttals and arguments here please.

LOL you serious?

The Argonians invaded after most of the Dunmer society was pretty much wiped out during the red year. Not to mention they had just lost their religious leaders of 3000+ years and the Oblivion crisis and civil wars had just happened there as well. They were not at the height of their power. You want a comparison of Dunmer VS Argonians Strength look at the Arnesian war lol. Dunmer kicked there asses.

That is like saying one man is stronger when he beat up the other when he was tied up and ill.

Btw Dunmer held off the might of the Imperial Empire twice. The second time they became part of the empire while keeping all of their old customs and slavery because the empire knew it could not handle the Dunmer at the height of their power. When Reman Cyrodiil tried to conquer Morrowind it left his both armies and nations in tatters. The whole of the Empire could not bring the Dunmer down.

Lore lesson over.

I have to agree...The argonian will just keep getting back up and asking for more.

Khajiit sits back, watches both armies wipe each other out, then picks off stragglers. Will share spoils, though. Khajiit would not want to be selfish.

On second thought, khajiit is leaving now. Khajiit would not want to be shellfish.

If we use Lore it will be Bosmer every single time. The Great Hunt ends all who oppose it. It was once used to simply roll into Skyrim through their defence and kill their high king, just like that.

skyrim? well you now what? a thalmor could summon an atronach, bind a weapon, and then sustain magical defenses longer than anyone else, then use their highborn ability and do it all again. yea? what do you have to say now breton supporters!