For me though, I very rarely have problems with video games. Even the games that reviews label as "buggy" or "broken" don't give me trouble and Fallout: New Vegas was no exception. Once I installed the game on my hard drive (Xbox 360) I had zero problems (as opposed to the two crashes I had over the course of 100 hours).

Some people get lucky while others don't. Being part of a consumer economy however puts great emphasis on the consumer to know what they're buying. While it would be good practice for a company to only release products when they're perfect, the responsibility does lie with the consumer. Now if a company sells a dangerous or intentionally faulty product, then the consumer is entitled reparations for damages and loss. However New Vegas fits neither of those in my opinion.

Now if Bethesda and Obsidian decide to release a free DLC package, I won't complain but I still don't think that they're obligated to do it.

Many people say that but ends contradicting themselves, i hope that you never buy a Bethesda/Obsidian game again

I dont need to make excuses. It is a FACT that I am more then willing to take more bugs at the start in exchange for a larger game and I know many others are like me. As long as patches fix enough of the bugs im fine just as I was with dozens of other large buggy games. Just as I will be with dozens of future large buggy games.

If you cant handle bugs then wait 3-4 months. I can handle bugs so I dont have to wait.

my friend when it comes to holding a grudge im like a dog with a bone..

on topic..i dont want compensation..i dont free dlc..what i want is something were far less likely to ever get..an explanation and an apology..

Wait wait wait, so now its my fault they screwed up. If a company says that their product is a "fun-action packed game that we can get hours of play time out of" we expect it to be just that. It is the COMPANY'S job to deliver what they say they will deliver. CONSUMERS should research things when they buy them, and do put themselves out there when they buy a new product, but think if you were the first person to play New Vegas, you would not know that there are bugs that make the game unplayable. You wouldn't expect there to be, because Obsidian said they could handle it.



Love that post blueboykc :biggrin: bravo!!! :clap:

Here folks, is an example of taking things out of context. My post was about the how it's the responsibilty of the consumer to know what they're buying. It isn't the company's responsibility to give a detailed anolysis of their product and make it available to potential customers... They can do that but no company with any business sense would actually admit that their product is flawed or release their product with the knowledge that it would piss off the buyer. That's why review sites like Cnet exist... That's why magazine like Game Informer and Consumer Reports are still printing.

My point: Do your research and cut the folks some slack. I understand the frustration behind buying a product that's bugged, but unless you have been injured or the company is participating in some game developer conspiracy, you shouldn't get your hopes up about getting compensation.

Besides, look at the fact that there's a patch coming out... The fact that they're making DLC. The developer obviously cares about making their customer's gaming experience better. Otherwise they'd just throw their product onto the shelves and run off with the money.

First off, I would say games are cheaper now. I remember paying $99.99 for WWF No Mercy when it came out for the N64. And if you consider inflation... we're getting a bargain compared to what they could be charging (if an NES game cost $50 to buy back in 1985, we're lucky it's not $149.99 a game now).

As for your toaster anology, that's fine. If you bought a game that worked as simply as a toaster, alright. But lets reverse it, what if you bought a toaster that also made eggs and bacon, for the same price as a regular toaster, and that toaster sometimes messed up the eggs while you were also cooking the bacon and the toast at the same time, and you figured out "oh, I can cook Bacon and Toast at the same time, I have to do the eggs at a different time, this is a bit of a glitch". Sure you'd be angry that your complex toaster didn't work as advertised, but you should also realize you paid the same amount of money as you would have for the toaster that only makes toast. Conversely, Fallout: New Vegas costs the same amount of money as Mortal Kombat 1 did when it came out in the 90's. Is that a valid excuse? No, but you should expect some issues when you're paying the same price for a far more complex piece of technology as you did for the far more simple one.

And finally, everyone has every right to EXPECT it to work, but the fact remains that as long as a million people pre-order a game, there's no incentive for these far more complex games to work perfectly the first time right out of the box. They get your money early, patch it later, everyone's EVENTUALLY happy. I doubt this experience will change very many people though, I'm going to bet 90-95% of the people who are on these boards with the DLC error will pre-order another game in their lifetime (even if it's not an Obsidian game, they aren't the only company who release games with bugs).

Just to note: I didn't find very many reviews of the game that mentioned the bugs in any great detail so to be fair even if someone were to "research" the game, it sadly seems many game reviewers neglect the downside for some reason. As for cutting them some slack, I disagree with that as well. If we were talking about a small mom and pop shop, I'd agree. For some (Like me), I've never had such trouble with a game before. I'm a gamer in the sense that I just play a game, I don't really look at much of anything besides title. The point I'm making is that this isn't something I expected, and it really won't; outside of me making sure any game I pick up from this company is something I wait to buy months after or even buy second hand. So far, there haven't been any games I've played outside of this game that's had these types of issues to the point I'm willing to take interest in developer and publisher names.

As I said, I experienced the bug where the game is unloadable. Upon research, I was told to avoid some quests, and save in multiple "sections". regardless, the hours I had put into the game were lost. I haven't had something this bad...well, ever. Well, I take that back. My old NES zelda game had the issue where if the internal battery died, you couldn't take it out of the nes or the data would be gone. I was a bit more understanding honestly. One, I had more time on my hands. Two it was a technological limitation. I don't see the bugs as a technological limitation, just sloppy work.



I agree. They do care. As a simple lone customer, unhappy with a product, I told them how I think they could make amends, at least to me. I don't think they can make it worse (they could, but they won't), but they can (not should, but can) make it better. For some, a patch is all that they want. I want that too, but that's minimal, that's akin to "doing your job". Some want an apology. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that does anything positive. It gives your competitors fuel against you and really, what are a couple of words, I can do without an apology. Free DLC, that is serious. That hits them in the pocket book and it does it willingly. "They are willing to bleed for us" can be a strong incentive and tells me (just me) that they really do care, beyond just the "I'm doing my job" care. Now i think, "Hey, it's ok to invest in this company by buying this new game they are releasing because if it comes out and it's really really buggy, I know they will do what they can to not only fix it, but to make up for it."

And, most of all, by doing this, it gives them incentive not to release a product with this kind of flaw, to better test their stuff and to work harder on debugging it. "Guys, lets make extra sure this game is flawless, because honestly, last time we released a game that had a save flaw, it not only cost us some customers, but we lost 2-3 weeks of DLC sales."

Even if Bethsidian did do something like an apology, people would still be complaining. Hell, even if Bethesda releases Free DLC, people would still be complaining.

If I were Bethsidian, I wouldn't even release a free apology..why? Cause people would still complain saying "oh, your apology is still too little..I Wantz free DLC!"

If you think a company is going to offer you free DLC cause their game has some bugs, you're delusional. Companies don't make money giving away free stuff.

Games have bugs, always have always will. Companies do there best to patch this stuff. If you're not satisfied by their efforts, let them know by no longer purchasing their product.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think a diatribe on the companies message board is going to do a damn thing.

But please continue, this banter is amusing. :biggrin:

Nice out look on things you have there.

Of course, but you would appease some (Hopefully the majority that have issues to begin with). Though, I think an official apology is more "out there" than free DLC.



Not true. Many companies will give things away because it helps develop strong customer relations. In fact, you're more likely to get something if you've already proven you're willing to spend the money. For example, if you go out to eat and have a bad experience at the fault of the restaurant, you're likely to get your meal free. Depending on how bad, you may actually get that meal, plus another free. Why? Because they want you to come back. If they foot the bill of your $50 meal, you're more likely to come back because of good customer relations. Like I said in my prior post, they can foot the bill for $15, and you'll hopefully get that back and more with the release of future content and games with those who would have not purchased any more games.



That's sort of an "all or nothing" approach. It's always best to voice your opinion and give the company a chance redeem themselves, especially if you think they have it within their ability to redeem themselves.



I agree...it may not do a thing, but at least I can say I tried.

My apologies, I didn't mean to misquote you :mellow: . I agree with you that consumers should know what they are buying and that the company is unlikely to provide all the information we require as that what reviews are for. However my point was that if the company says that the product can do something, it should do that. New Vegas for me is in a state that I cannot enjoy some of the features that Obsidian claim it has. If it was just a few bugs here and there, I'd understand, but at present there are gamebreaking bugs that the user can't always avoid.



In the toaster example you said above I would be fine to accept it was a glitch. However if the toaster was advertised as able to make bacon and eggs at the same time as the toast, but it could not do exactly that, then I'm well in my rights to make a fuss about it :tongue:.
The game does not have to be perfect when it ships, but it must allow a certain amount of playability and I think, for me New Vegas does not do this.

It's ok. I just hate it when people do that.

My stance is that while there are many people that are upset (for good reasons), Obsidian and Bethesda are quite obviously not the evil corporate fatcats that some seem to want to make them out to be. If that were the case, they wouldn't bother patching the game at all, let alone make DLC content. I realize that doesn't help much and the upset feelings are likely still there, but they do deserve credit for the game nonetheless. I just hope that the coming patch (which is probably going to be friggen huge) fixes the problems that some folks have been having so they can enjoy the game as much as I have been!

A straw man argument.

I'm going to disagree with this. If a company wants to make money and continue doing so, also known as "staying in business", they don't screw over portions of their buyers with no recourse, which is what not patching the game at all would be. It's not like we're a captive audience here, there are plenty of other games and companies releasing them. As far as DLCs ... companies seem make plenty of money with low overhead with them, so a company releasing a DLC isn't exactly proof that they're not interested in making a lot of money. That said, I don't feel Obsidian and/or Bethesda are corporate fatcats. They make products I enjoy and in order to continue doing so, they need to continue making money, so no complaints here. I just wasn't sure your examples were suitable to prove that particular point.

Compensation is for damages.. How are you damaged?

Your compensation is you get to play a good game.


Someone needs to send this to Micheal O'Leary (CEO of RyanAir), he's going to get a great laugh out of that!

I'm not sure where we disagree...

I will say it again for the hard of reading:

Game software is unique among consumer products in that the customer's ONLY recourse for a fundamentally broken or defectively designed product involves NOT getting their initial investment back upon return of the product to the seller. Sure, take a physically broken disc back to a store, and get a replacement copy, but that DOES NOT replace the broken content of that disc.

Go buy, well, ANYTHING else, but for this example, we'll say a surround sound receiver... Go and plunk down your cash, even after reading reviews which somehow gloss over the reality that IS the product, get it home, and take it for a spin. You get it all set up (according to the manual), and you only hear sound from the left front speaker, even though you bought the stupidly expensive "special" cable. Not only that, but it only plays sound for 30 seconds at a time before stuttering, and selecting "DVD/Blu" (ostensibly for hearing movies in surround) with the remote instead only opens the "set-up" menu, or worse yet, shuts down the unit and erases your sound settings... Of course, if you have internet, the first thing you do is log in to look up issues with your chosen unit. Before actually getting on line, you see you have a NEW email from the distributor of the receiver (because you wisely registered your product). On opening this message, you see that "if you can plug your device into the internet, we will send it a 'patch' to ensure semi-proper operation"... (Sorry to non-internet users, but retailers won't take back your now-used product!)

Would you keep such a machine? I would NOT. It would be right back to the retailer, for a FULL REFUND. That is simply not an option with game software. The fact that FNV was patched IMMEDIATELY for PC/Steam, and WITHIN 3 DAYS for consoles absolutely states, in as plain of language that can be had, that the game was knowingly released with some pretty serious issues.

Howzabout that patch that's supposed to be "coming soon"? Well, doubters, ask yourself this: "How can they release an 'initial' patch in 0-3 days of release, yet it's taking until now, nearly 2 months later, to get a 'better' one?" Unless they were working on the "early fix" PRIOR to the release of the game...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for torches and pitchforks at Beth's or Obsidian's doors, nor am I big into any conspiracy theories about money grubbing corporations or whatever. That being said, the fact remains that ANY developer/publisher will get away with whatever WE, the people who spend OUR MONEY on their product, will let them, and they are in the unique position to either A) Take advantage of that, or B ) Not just make it "right", but make amends... The "industry" is slanted in their favor, but if more people spoke with their wallets, the tune would surely change.

It just really makes me sad that some folks think that it's okay to get screwed, without consent, as long as the screwer "meant well", and even worse, that EVERYONE should just "shut up and take it"...

I am in total agreement MonkeyClaw :biggrin:

This is true. Game software is just about the only consumer product I know of which a person can purchase, use till their done with it and still have the original to return. Not too long ago it was fairly easy to return it and keep a copy of it as well. That's why it's treated differently.

The only comparable thing I can think of is High-Def TVs on Super Bowl weekend.

Food is consumed and can't be returned. Sound systems can't be returned and still used. DVDs might be similar, I don't know the return policies on them but it's possible that rental stores reduce the frequency of buying/watching/returning.

It is problematic to try to treat software as though it was a more normal consumer good.

Every piece of software eventually reaches the "gold" state. Released to manufacturing. That's the point where the game has passed the QA (supposedly) and is ready for release. The developers rarely stop working on the software at that point. There is almost always continuing work to find and squash bugs, add features, change features and prepare for future upgrades. The patch that was released when the game went live was the result of that continuing work and was intentionally released just before the game went live in order to get everyone updated when it went live. That was a good thing. The second patch was a hotfix to correct issues discovered after the game went live, and was rushed out to beat the European and Asian launch of the game. Again, a good thing.

The third patch was announced as an "incremental patch" to fix a few major issues with the PC version while they were working on the comprehensive patch. It didn't go well and they didn't release anymore "incremental patches".

There is no doubt that this release did not go as well as it should have. And there is no doubt that a better method of dealing with customer problems would be nice. Technical hurdles and the reality of people stealing from the company result in a convoluted mess with regard to patches and product returns.

I seriously doubt anyone is happy about all this. Including Bethesda/Obsidian/ZeniMax.

Compensation is easily obtainable via Craigslist, Gamestop, or E-Bay, depending on the amount of compensation you'd be happy with. Craigslist returns the highest value, by the way.

This issue is irrelevant, because retailer policy dictates otherwise. Not that the blame lies on any publisher or developer, but that it is an INDUSTRY WIDE practice, and not some sort of "dirty little secret"...



Again, you are asking for "proof" where it has already been deemed a "non-issue", especially if you are going to buttonhole game software into the same time frame. Basically you are giving up your right as a paying customer (because of WHEN you made your purchase) to "the greater good". Nice job and all, and thank you for letting "them" think that they can keep getting away with it!



IF you are at a restaurant, and your meal was not delivered as you ordered it, you have IMMEDIATE, DEFINITIVE recourse, and because they'd rather have you come back than not, they WILL accommodate you, and (gasp) perhaps even give your next meal free, or at a discount. Sound systems still fall under the "return policy" of retailers, (in the US, usually at least 30 days, with proof of purchase, sometimes more), never mind the Mfg'er's warranty, so technically, YES, they can. DVDs are, in a nutshell, considered the same as "game software", and do not enjoy the same "refund" benefits that other consumer products do. That being said, movies have a certain, far shorter, "shelf life" than games, and those measures, while in place for seemingly the same reason, are more appropriate for movies, as they CAN be "consumed, re-packed, perhaps copied, and returned" in such a short span. Not entirely true with games. (Not to say that it doesn't happen, but that it's much less likely). NOBODY needs inspiration for MORE excuses!



WRONG! If you spend your money on a product supposed to do "X,Y, & Z", then quite simply, it needs to do exactly that. When you buy it. Period.

If you buy a house from "Contractor A" (i.e.- the person/company responsible for EVERYTHING that happened in that house), but they contracted the plumbing to "Contractor B" (who did the best to their ability given what "A" left them, but didn't get everything "right" because it wasn't their plumbing to start with), who is responsible?

The standard answer so far has been "The CONSUMER!", and quite frankly, that is all sorts of messed up!!! In fact the reasoning defies logic. It's like saying you buy a car, and once you drive it home, the salesman calls and says: "Hey, thanks for your purchase and all, BUT, don't try to open your windows, because they might crash into the door frame, leaving them inoperable. Oh, yeah, and also, if you are going faster than 50 MPH, DO NOT turn your radio up, because the power consumption might cause your engine to stall! Don't worry though, we're working on it, but you'll need to wait a bit..." That makes sense how?

Now I know that the nay-sayers will ask "But how can you compare your personal safety to a game? They are 2 different animals, and need to be treated as such!"

To that I say BU&&%$!T!!! If you, in good faith, pay for an item (any item, regardless of the lethality via negligent design or use), you are entitled to exactly what that item was (at the time of sale) presented as. Nothing more, nothing less. BUT, (as is the case here), you are presented with a "work in progress" advertised as a complete product, than I personally think it would be in the seller's best interest to "ki$$ a little a$$"...

Isn't it amazing how many console game developers managed to develop THOUSANDS of great games on various consoles that worked perfectly right out of the box, because they HAD TO or their companies would DIE, before idiots made console games able to be "patched" later like PC games?

Wait... So the technical innovation of making it possible to patch console games was an idiotic move? Let me guess, because "it allows companies to be lazy"...