Complete Character Design Freedom (Damage Resist Caps and Ri

Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:32 am

Numbers with an Iron Shield

550
399.78 = (150.22)
474.59 = (75.41) 0 (49.8%)
482.07 = (67.93) 1/5 (54.78%) +4.98 (10%)

485.41 = (66.59) 100 (55.67%)
493.97 = (56.03) 1/5 (62.7%) +7.03 (12.63%)
502.53 = (47.47) 2/5 (68.4%) +5.7 (10.24%)
511.09 = (38.91) 3/5 (74.1%) +5.7 (10.24%)
519.66 = (30.34) 4/5 (79.8%) +5.7 (10.24%)
527.47 = (22.53) 5/5 (85%) capped

Total improvement from perks; 53.59% (ignoring cap)

Try and figure that one out :P

Ha... this is me not being surprised. :tes:

Good ole Bethesda! LOL
-Loth

Edit: The point here is... in-game testing is a good idea. Good jorb, Dom! :)
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Tanya
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:40 pm

Forgive me for tuning in late...

Has it been determined how far one could get by simply utilizing existing gear (+25% to smithing, +25% to alchemy, ect.) without having to invest so heavily into enchantment or the crafting skills as a whole? I would be interested in the numbers one might be able to pull off without the crafting loop (and corresponding investments)...
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Charles Weber
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:10 pm

I believe that the max smithing gear you can find is 25% and the max smithing potion is 50%. If my math is correct at 100 Smithing this will get you a Daedric set of 411 requiring 2/5 Jeggernaut to reach the cap.

Honestly, looking at the numbers I think we could get rid of alchemy and the corresponding perks and not lose much at all in the way of numbers. Although we'd suffer early game when we don't have access to top level store potions.
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Batricia Alele
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:58 pm

Honestly, looking at the numbers I think we could get rid of alchemy and the corresponding perks and not lose much at all in the way of numbers.

I agree... I pretty much always ignore Alchemy anyway, but that's just a personal preference for me. It just seemed tedious IMO, but I know that there's plenty of people out there who think otherwise.

-Loth
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Dalton Greynolds
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:55 am

Appreciate the feedback! Unfortunately, after thinking about this at some length, this mileage really does vary; while I might save some level investment and perks from avoiding the enchanting and alchemy, I would have to burn more perks in the corresponding armor skill to make up for lost time. All this would really do is keep my level a little lower - the points invested in alchemy and enchantment really would probably be a better long-term investment, even if I didn't take the time to complete the loop cycle...
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Manny(BAKE)
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:00 pm

Dual Wielding maxed out Daedric Maces, I get 1071.36 damage, or 4519.8 Power Attack. Using store bought potions I get 890.4 damage, or 3756.37 Power Attack, I one shot alduin either way and save 7 perks :o

while I might save some level investment and perks from avoiding the enchanting and alchemy, I would have to burn more perks in the corresponding armor skill to make up for lost time.
Don't avoid Enchanting, it's epic. Avoiding alchemy will save you 7 perks and you only need to put 1 extra into Heavy Armor to hit the cap.
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Jack Bryan
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:31 pm

Appreciate the feedback! Unfortunately, after thinking about this at some length, this mileage really does vary; while I might save some level investment and perks from avoiding the enchanting and alchemy, I would have to burn more perks in the corresponding armor skill to make up for lost time. All this would really do is keep my level a little lower - the points invested in alchemy and enchantment really would probably be a better long-term investment, even if I didn't take the time to complete the loop cycle...

I would say at least get into Enchanting... tuning up your gear with Enchants even early-game can make a real difference. In case you don't already know this trick, I would suggest getting a soul trapping weapon and as many empty soul gems as you can reasonably afford as early as possible. Soul trap doesn't need a high enchanting skill to apply effectively... in fact, the faster you go through the charges on your weapon, the more often you will need to recharge it with the soul gems you will be filling with it, thus leveling up your enchanting skill faster. Disenchanting will do a lot of good for upping your enchant skill, but the recharge trick is much more reliable and consistent than relying upon disenchanting. Jeez... I never even pay for training in it. I guess that would be pretty reliable, too, but gets costly after a while. :)

-Loth
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Laura Ellaby
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:56 am

Good to know that alchemy isnt as necessecary; I'll see what I can do with entry-level smithing gear, 100 smithing, entry level alchemy, and 100 enchanting. If I can get myself into a situation resembling survivable on master difficulty while wearing wolf armor, I'll call it a day...

Difficult part might be figuring out the breakpoints between entry level gear and final level gear for the smithing percentages; that could mean the difference between 2 or 3 points invested in heavy armor and saving those points once the appropiate leveled loot lists appear - if that made any sense...
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lucile davignon
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:05 pm

Good to know that alchemy isnt as necessecary; I'll see what I can do with entry-level smithing gear, 100 smithing, entry level alchemy, and 100 enchanting. If I can get myself into a situation resembling survivable on master difficulty while wearing wolf armor, I'll call it a day...

Wolf Armor can hit the armor cap with the lowest total perk expenditure of any armor set (I believe it's 2: 1 in Steel Smithing, and 1/5 in Juggernaut).

Difficult part might be figuring out the breakpoints between entry level gear and final level gear for the smithing percentages; that could mean the difference between 2 or 3 points invested in heavy armor and saving those points once the appropiate leveled loot lists appear - if that made any sense...

Domilasa's already done it for you. She's made an interactive spreadsheet we can determine the exact level of crafting and perks necessary to hit the cap with any type of armor.
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Luis Reyma
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:27 pm

You should be able to hit the cap with Steel armor (same as wolf I believe) with 100% smithing enchants, 50% smithing potion, 100 smithing, 2/5 Juggernaut and Well Fitted.

Domilasa's already done it for you. She's made an interactive spreadsheet we can determine the exact level of crafting and perks necessary to hit the cap with any type of armor.
It's not interactive right now :P though people who have helped contribute to this thread can PM me for editing priviledges if they want to try it out.
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Dean Ashcroft
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:06 pm

Good question... you can probably assume that the best smithing gear will appear at a reasonably high character level. You may have to settle for multiple levels (as good as you can get) during the early-mid game and acquire the better stuff as it becomes available later on.

-Loth
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Tarka
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:34 am

Groovy! That'll work out just fine for me, and save me some significant investment in skills I wasn't planning on using as much of anyhow...

Appreciate the time and feedback!

One more question - is that mitigation cap predicated on the assumption that I will have 100 heavy armor skill as well, or just on the assumption that I have taken the appropiate perks?
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Miragel Ginza
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:11 pm

About 70 Armor skill if my math is right, but I'm still working on it so YMMV :)
If you take one perk out of Juggernaut you should have about 74% at 100 skill.
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Marina Leigh
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:19 pm

Hrm. Might take some time to get there, but honestly, it looks like this approach might be sustainable while leveling. Crafting as I level, and enchanting/smithing on the fly, I should be scaling on par with enemies on master difficulty, without hitting the point where I feel significantly over or underpowered. This may just provide the edge needed to remain competitive on this difficulty setting - thanks for providing me with all the feedback!

I look forward to seeing how the numbers for two hand block go.

-edit-

Sustainability is a definete consideration, all told. You miss out on a lot of content by taking the 'craft til 100, make your awesome gear, then start the adventure' approach. I'm liking the idea of being able to enjoy the trip, so to speak, while knowing I'll end up where I want to be...
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Darren
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:25 pm

I look forward to seeing how the numbers for two hand block go.
They're done :P

Here's my numbers with blocking using two handed weapons;

550
390.4 = (159.6)
457.43 = (92.57) Block 0 (42%)
486.16 = (63.84) Block 100 (60%)
495.74 = (54.26) 1/5 (66%)
505.31 = (44.69) 2/5 (72%)
514.89 = (35.11) 3/5 (78%)
524.46 = (25.54) 4/5 (84%)
526.06 = (23.94) 5/5 (85%)

Either the perks lie, or they just work differently if not using a shield as each one is improving my block by 10%

I'll be testing shields next to see how they work with the perks and what their base blocks are.
4/5 Perks or a 40% enchant will cap block.
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LADONA
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:57 am

Sustainability is a definete consideration, all told. You miss out on a lot of content by taking the 'craft til 100, make your awesome gear, then start the adventure' approach. I'm liking the idea of being able to enjoy the trip, so to speak, while knowing I'll end up where I want to be...

I know what you mean, and I'm the same way, personally. That's why I only up my smithing in chunks instead of powerleveling it ASAP. Do a quest or three, explore a little bit until inventory is full of ill-gotten loot, go back to town, craft some stuff, improve my gear, buy some more soul gems, go back out, kill bad guys, etc. :) To me, it feels more "organic"... if that's even the right word.

-Loth
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Kelly John
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:50 am

I know what you mean, and I'm the same way, personally. That's why I only up my smithing in chunks instead of powerleveling it ASAP. Do a quest or three, explore a little bit until inventory is full of ill-gotten loot, go back to town, craft some stuff, improve my gear, buy some more soul gems, go back out, kill bad guys, etc. :) To me, it feels more "organic"... if that's even the right word.

-Loth

I'm just trying to find an approach to master difficulty that doesn't involve spamming illusion, hiding behind conjured meat shields, or abuse of sneak. Crafting seems to be the other viable approach, but crafting is a bit of a fine line - if you don't plan, you're either behind the curve or beastly. While it can be gratifying to swat most anything you come across, theres a -lot- to be said for feeling like potential death is lurking behind every door. It's all about balance...
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Lily Evans
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:03 pm

I'm just trying to find an approach to master difficulty that doesn't involve spamming illusion, hiding behind conjured meat shields, or abuse of sneak. Crafting seems to be the other viable approach, but crafting is a bit of a fine line - if you don't plan, you're either behind the curve or beastly. While it can be gratifying to swat most anything you come across, theres a -lot- to be said for feeling like potential death is lurking behind every door. It's all about balance...

I wish you the best of luck, sir... go get 'em! :)
-Loth

PS It might help if you follow the simple rule "my smithing skill can't be my highest skill". Having that much self-discipline will keep the game interesting for you, I would imagine. But above all, the most important part of all of this is to have fun with it!
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Bethany Watkin
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:19 pm

As you noted, crafting can be maxed at any time. Block isn't particularly difficult to level; just grab a shield and go let a giant beat on you. Light/ Heavy Armor skill does take some time to level, but we don't need to have everything at 100 by level 15, do we?

Using a shield certainly makes you more durable in the early game, at the expense of significant chunk of damage output. The problem is that once your crafted armor is mitigation capped, and your Block is maxed, your shield's main benefits disappear; all that extra armor value is wasted, and the higher base Block % is irrelevant because your Two Hander blocks just as well. And how were you spending those perks in the early game? Filling out Block, One-Handed, and Two-Handed won't leave you much room for anything else.

Since we're trying to optimize here, mid- and late-game are definitely out targets, but you're not really gimping yourself in the early game by using a Two-Hander instead of a Shield.



The extra enchanting slot(s) are nice, but they're hardly a compelling reason to use a shield. +Block enchants are usually wasted on a Shield; a lowly Hide Shield starts off with a base Block % of 50, and 1/5 Shield wall brings that up to 70%-- just 15% shy of cap already. Upgrade your Shield once or twice, and you're already at the cap without any enchants. An extra slot for Resist Magic isn't bad either, but between the Lord Stone, Agent of Mara buff, and Alteration perks, it's not really necessary.
Good stuff on this thread! Still I am playing mostly-organic ( a little training block and heavy armor here and there) and just hitting heavy armor + block at 70 at level 30. I think you are down playing how long it will take to hit the armor/block cap. Unless you just flat out straight craft and let a mud crab hit you for an hour. Which is not-fun. My personal opinion. I am curious what level people are hitting when they max out the three crafting skills? And if you are on the PC I am sure most people here will use a mod to nerf some of this stuff. It is only fun to be god like for a while. Ha, I am sure someone will use this thread to pick out exactly what needs to be nerfed! (Mostly just eliminate/cap + foritfy skill enchants/potions, cut smithing dmg/armor bonus in half- poof a much better game)

Plus a shield gives you acces to two extremely powerful perks - Elemental Block and Shield Charge. After doing the basic math crunching here for a super munchin character it would be interesting for the people on this thread to post what are the "best" perks in the game. Besides enchanting, smithing and alchemy!

On the subject of bashing - every test I have done shows two hand weapons doing a lot more damage then a shield. Daedric War Hammers hit for about a 100 and Daedric Shields hit for 40. That does sound a little - wimpy compared to the super min-maxed numbers posted here. But good damage.
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Natalie J Webster
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:19 pm

... it would be interesting for the people on this thread to post what are the "best" perks in the game. Besides enchanting, smithing and alchemy!
I'm a fan of perks that add new levels of utility to the char, like Sprint Power Attack... those kinds of perks enable you to do more "stuff", rather than just increasing numbers using abilities you already have. For example, Sprint Power Attack is super-handy for taking down mages and archers when you are being chased by bad guys all around.

On the subject of bashing - every test I have done shows two hand weapons doing a lot more damage then a shield. Daedric War Hammers hit for about a 100 and Daedric Shields hit for 40. That does sound a little - wimpy compared to the super min-maxed numbers posted here. But good damage.
Nice... this is encouraging. I'm interested in what controlled in-game testing could reveal about this.
-Loth

Edit: concerning what level I am when hitting max crafting... LOL I haven't yet! I play slow as hell, and I'm taking my time. Also, I'm totally ignoring Alchemy, so I will be a lower level than most when I do get there, as my alchemy will be 15. :P
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kitten maciver
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:39 am

591

Daedric Warhammer

584.25 = (6.75) = Bash
570.75 = (20.25) = Power Bash
489.75 = (101.25) = Deadly Bash

Deadric Greatsword

585 = (6)
573 = (18)
501 = (90)

Daedric Shield

586.50 = (4.5)
577.50 = (13.5)
523.50 = (67.5)

Iron Warhammer

586.50 = (4.5)
577.50 = (13.5)
523.50 = (67.5)

Iron Shield

588.50 = (2.5)
583.50 = (7.5)
553.50 = (37.5)

Weapons beat shields, better weapons do more damage.

Smithing boost, two handed perks/enchants and block perks/enchants have no effect.
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Steve Smith
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:49 pm

You rock, Domilasa. :)

Hmm... Daedric Warhammer vs. Daedric Greatsword -- a weaker Power Bash, but a stronger Deadly Bash? Interesting... and... odd.

-Loth
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:42 pm

You rock, Domilasa. :)

Hmm... Daedric Warhammer vs. Daedric Greatsword -- a weaker Power Bash, but a stronger Deadly Bash? Interesting... and... odd.

-Loth
Haha, that was my mistake. Typo :)
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Prue
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:12 am

Haha, that was my mistake. Typo :)

Ah, nevermind... that's what you get for being human. :)
-Loth

PS So is this it for Blocking, then? Because you've tested this out pretty dang thoroughly. Cheshyr should have no problem taking this collected info and adding it to the Guide.
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Jonathan Montero
 
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Post » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:44 am

Could make a list of base block% and bash damage for each shield and two hander, but other than that it's pretty much done as far as I can tell.

Shield Block = Base * somerandomskillcalculationidontknowyet * Perks * Enchants
Weapon Block = (42 + (18 * Skill/100)) * Perks * Enchants
Damage = Base * somerandomskillcalculationidontknowyet * Power Bash * Deadly Bash

Power Bash = 3
Deadly Bash = 5
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Matt Bigelow
 
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