Yeeeeeeeeeah. I finally gave Master a go the other day and I have no idea what I was so worried about. Might be tough once I re-roll with it, but even so, it's not the most difficult thing to just horde potions and not run in like the enemy owes you money.

And every build is indeed viable, it's a matter of whether or not your build has you excel at a few skills or just kinda mediocre with a lot of skills. I just don't rigorously plan my build, it seems mad stressful. If I want to change things up, again, not much in the game preventing me from doing so.

there are certain mods that make the game impossibly difficulty without these optimizations but i see your point.

I've got two issues with this thread.

First, Even on Master, Skyrim is already way too easy, why would anyone want to break it more?

There are several reasons.
1. To demonstrate to gameplay development that, even without relying on perceived glitches, characters can be powerful enough to make any challenge trivial - and with actual numbers.
2. To demonstrate to other players that many different approaches to the game *will* work, given certain types of effort common to all of them.
3. Because some people enjoy thinking about and playing with game mechanics on a theoretical level.

Second, the premise of the OP is that any build is viable, yet there's so much arguing over builds, including follow-up OP posts. If you're killing everything in one hit, and practically invincible as it is, does it really matter if you too Treasure Hunter in the lockpicking tree or not?

When you start with a question of "How does my build look?" or "What can I do to make my build better?" there will be differences of opinion. These differences exist precisely because most approaches will work.

That out of the way...
I see the OP describes 562 damage for the Daedric bow. Could I get a rundown for where that number comes from?

This thread was created when Skyrim was just launched. No one knew anything about how skills, perks, spells, vampirism interacts and synergies. The final version you see here is a filtered version of the combined experiences of many contributors on which skill works with each other. So obviously, certain skills will be more recommended than others.

The OP's statement regarding all builds been viable is that, if you spent the 20+ perks to boost the three craft skills outlined in the guide, ANY build becomes viable in combat. This gives a player the freedom to choose non-combat perks in skills such as speech or pickpocket without worrying about combat efficiency.

To get that figure, you will need:

4x +29% Fortify Smithing and 4x +29% Fortify Alchemy enchantments on a 'crafting' outfit
4x +47% Fortify Marksman (On your armor of choice)
1x +130% Fortify Smithing potion
100 Smithing
100 Archery
100 Alchemy
100 Enchanting
5x Overdraw perk
appropriate Alchemy and Enchanting perks

1) Don the crafting gear
2) After making sure you have an Ebony Ingot on hand, quaff the potion
3) Apply the ingot to the bow by using the grinding wheel
4) Swap to the armor

Note that the 562 damage rating is before arrows are taken into account; with Daedric Arrows as well, the damage rating will be 586. To show how the crafting bonuses stack up, here's a breakdown of damage ratings with some or none of them active:

Without the Fortify Marksman enchantments, the bow's rating will be 195
With them but without the potion, it will be 126
With neither it will be 58

That also shows just how ridiculous the increases get when stacked; the 'final' value of 562 is just under 9.69 times the 'base' value of 58, which is a rather large differential. It gets even sillier if you invest in Sneak perks, especially the one that raises the sneak-attack multiplier from 2 to 3, and if you add potions it goes through the roof:

Normal Attack: 562 damage (am deliberately omitting arrow ratings)
3x Sneak bonus: 1686 damage
130% Fortify Marksman potion: 1292.6 damage
Potion + Sneak: 3877.8 damage

For reference: that last figure is high enough to one-shot Ancient Dragons, and even, in some cases, Alduin himself. Granted it's not easy to arrange a sneak attack on either such opponent, but it is possible.

How strong can the Nightingale Bow be upgraded? Without using headgear exploit, resto loop, just maxed skills and trade skill perks.

How strong can the Nightingale Bow be upgraded? Without using headgear exploit, resto loop, just maxed skills and trade skill perks.

It doesn't interact with any perks - so the highest level version will be equal to an unperked Daedric bow.

To get that figure, you will need:

4x +29% Fortify Smithing and 4x +29% Fortify Alchemy enchantments on a 'crafting' outfit
4x +47% Fortify Marksman (On your armor of choice)

So a 2.88 enchant multiplier, rather than 2.6 as I had been thinking.

Note that the 562 damage rating is before arrows are taken into account; with Daedric Arrows as well, the damage rating will be 586. To show how the crafting bonuses stack up, here's a breakdown of damage ratings with some or none of them active:

I'm getting 794 when you add the arrows. If what I found in http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1361775-archery-damage-tests/ is correct, at least, arrows take most of the multipliers:
Damage = ((Bow base + smithing +arrows) * skill * overdraw * Fort Marks chants * potion * sneak) + crit + poison + weapon chants.

Normal Attack: 562 damage (am deliberately omitting arrow ratings)
3x Sneak bonus: 1686 damage
130% Fortify Marksman potion: 1292.6 damage
Potion + Sneak: 3877.8 damage

For reference: that last figure is high enough to one-shot Ancient Dragons, and even, in some cases, Alduin himself. Granted it's not easy to arrange a sneak attack on either such opponent, but it is possible.

Actually... I found out something else that's rather cool. If you are standing, such that when you crouch you won't be detected by the target, you can fire an arrow and crouch while it's in mid-flight, and it will get the sneak bonus. I think I'd be able to get this to interact with Shadow Warrior, which I'll test later.

How would you evaluate the viability of a Breton or Altmer image using primarily magic skills and clothing on Adept or expert.


The reason I'm not kooking at armor is to save on smithing perks. I guess alchemy is obligatory to keep destruction viable at high levels. As well as enchant for cost reduction.

With 29% gear/130% potions, the best you can manage is a +49 armor bonus on chest pieces, and +25 on everything else. And you are unfortunately mistaken; it's a +25 AR bonus on top. Thus:

[69 cumulative base armor rating + 49 chest + (3 * 25 arm/foot/head)] = 193
193 smithed AR * 1.4 armor skill + 25 Nightingale set = 295

(19 base + 46 tempering) * 1.5 weapon skill * 2 overdraw * (1 + 4 * .47 enchants) = 562

Because it's unperked, you can only improve the base damage by 25.

You'll probably be just fine as long as you have a follower/summon of some sort to tank.

1. For most of us, the point is not to make overpowered character, I can do that with just stealth and no smithing. The point is discover and map out gameplay mechanic quirks and behaviors and how to maximize on it.

2. Some people like to play an OP build that fit their style. It is a single player, why do you care what other people do and want to do.

If you don't like it, don't come to this thread, you don't see me going around telling role players their build svcks because it is not optimized.

My figure for 'with arrows' is a direct quote of the value shown on the inventory screen. If said thread is correct, that value is way off, which would explain why my most recent character was getting a value of 71 for her bow compared to 54 for her Greatsword despite both being equally improved and the GS having a significantly higher base damage rating.

Granted, my two stealthy archers with maxed skills and gear are multiple patches old, so their info may well be out of date.

Can some of the experts here help me verify something. Since i'm on PS3 testing is a real pain or entirely impossible.

Are Runes affected bei augment destruction perks or not or maybe only some runes?
I already asked the question in the general forum but got only one answer without explanation/proof. Searching the internet i got various results from yes they do, no they don't and only the frost perks work....

I couldn't find an enemy i almost kill with one rune spell to test this after a level up....

Runes and cloaks are not affected.

Could someone please tell me if I got this right, I svck at math.

Make 4 items that fortify alchemy 25% (100% total)
Create fortify enchanting potions and all that (up to 32%)
Make 4 more items that fortify alchemy 29% (116% total)
Make 4 items that fortify smithing 29% too (116% total)
Make fortify smithing potions that come out to 130% improvement
Make a bunch of awesome improved weapons and armor
Enchant those armor and weapons using the 32% enchanting potions

So the enchantments for my bow's damage and sneak should be what, 47% each piece after using the potions?

Yep, that's the max without vampire necromage or the falmer helmet glitch.

Thank you, I wanted to try to reach the highest without actually using an "exploit" or anything.

I don't really consider the Necromage perk's boost to vampires an exploit. It's not like you don't have any downsides to it, you can only do it at 70 Restoration, you have to waste a perk, and you'll have the disadvantages of being a vampire. And it actually makes sense, vampires are technically undead. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was intentional.
BTW how much of a difference are we talking about here does anybody know? I mean, by doing the Smith-Enchant thingy with the Necromage perk, how much more AR would you gain for each armor set, or how many more schools of magic would you be able to get to 0-Mana for example? And would Alchemy recover its usefulness with the Necromage perk (only a 7% difference without it if I'm not mistaken)?

I was talking more about the restoration loop when I said exploit, I totally would do the necromage vampire boost but I have no desire to become one. Not because of any disadvantages but because for some unknown reason it makes my Khajiit's fur bleached white... Looks awful when you've fallen in love with an orange kitten...

I might consider making her a vampire just to make some gear then curing myself but that seems like a lot of work and wasted perk points just for a small boost. I'd also like to know how much of a bonus vampires get with enchanting/smithing gear.

...Team Edward?

I experimented with the fortify restoration loop, and strongly recommend against. It will make you level hella fast. Just making one super fortify restoration potion drov emy alchemy from 50 to 100, and made me gain levels ffrom 31 to 37. I then improved a set of leather armor to legendary, and drove my smithing skill from 22 to 100. by the time I was done, I was level 46.

I don't know if this has a place here or not, but I thought I would mention it for the utility of being able to save enchantment slots on armor for other things. If you are a Vampire, and select the Necromage perk (Restoration 70), you can then activate the Atronach stone for a 62.5 Magic Absorb effect, and select the Atronach Perk (Alteration 100) for a 37.5 Magic Absorb effect.

Basically, a Necromage Vampire can attain 100% Magic Absorption AKA fully immune to magic PERMANENTLY. I have personally tested this, as a stage 4 vampire, all clothes and jewelry off, as a Nord, not having completed the Agent of Mara quest, so I have 0% Fire Resistance, and 0% Magic Resistance. I am able to infinitely stand in the Fire Breath attack of an Ancient Dragon. However, if I get too close I am often OHKO'd by the bite animation attack.

Perhaps being 100% immune to magic makes the game too easy or too boring. But for some it may have utility, so you don't have to spend so many enchantment slots on your armor for magic / element resists.

Something I've found as a vampire (necromage, I doubt that's relevant though), you can stack multiple thieves guild hoods, guild master hoods, nightingale hoods and linwe's hoods. With multiple hoods equipped (one of each and two versions of thieves hoods) you can switch these hoods for other helmets or circlets, boosting the number of enchanting slots. I've managed to switch four of the hoods for circlets without it unequiping everything, but it's rather buggy and doesn't work everytime.

I'm usually altmer when doing this, which have messed up hair textures when wearing thieves guilds hoods, not sure if it works with other races.

You can also do this with forsworn boots and gauntlets, you get the same messed up arm and leg textures as a vampire and altmer (possibly other races) so you can equip 2+ bracers and boots, again this is buggy and doesn't work everytime.

Would be decent if someone could do some proper testing on this, I usually use it for my vampire characters that don't use enchanting so I can wear multiple armor pieces.