The problem with that is the Thalmor would've sent justicars anyways. The empire's not going to refuse them as they don't want to break the treaty. While rooting out talos worship is a nice side benefit, their main purpose is sowing dissent, subterfuge, and gathering intel.

The markarth incident was less than 1 year after the great war ended. Saying it's the cause is jumping the gun. The WGC was the cause of the justicar incursions.


Also the blades and the Medes have not been on good terms. The blades don't see Mede as a legit emperor. And Mede has his Penitus Oculus to replace them.

Many people who support the stormcloaks don't have a problem with the Septim Empire. They have a problem with the Mede Dynasty.

The dossier never calls him an agent. It refers to him as an asset, meaning that he is someone who may be of value, in this case because the things he does or may do can be used by the Thalmor to achieve their own ends. Since it suits the Thalmor just fine to see dissension brewing among their enemies, Ulfric's stand against the WGC (which the Empire cannot or will not repudiate at the present time) is an asset because it creates a situation that they wanted to happen anyway and can exploit to ther advantage.

An agent would be someone who is deliberately and knowingly working to advance the Thalmor's agenda, and there's no evidence of that in Ulfric's case.

In addition, the "trouble" that was stirred up by the Markarth Incident cannot be laid in full on his doorstep. The Nord rulers of the Reach agreed to allow free and protected Talos worship in their realm in return for what he did for them. If you want to complain that the current Thalmor presence in Skyrim is only the result of the flagrant violation of the WGC in Markarth, then please accept the fact that the Jarl and his family and advisors and whoever else was in on the "other side" of the deal are just as guilty of that "crime" as anybody else involved. However they are also guilty of reneging on the deal after they got what they wanted out of it, thereby getting back their land and their positions of power while the people who got it for them went to prison.

I take it anyone that plays a nord and sides with the imperials would also allow someone to wander into their home tell them what to do and how to do it and not tell them to go back from where ever the @&#% they came?

If so where do you live and when can I move in?

I think we can agree that Ulfric is the reason the Thalmor Justiciars came so soon, but I think we can also agree that they would go in like they did sooner or later anyway. Claiming it is Ulfrics fault they are there at all is far fetched.

Indeed. The Septims were dragonborn. The Septim Empire would have never surrendered after winning, and certainly would never have betrayed their very ancestor and the founder of their line. Martin Septim's sacrifice shows just how far a Septim would go to defend his people. The Mede Empire is not even a pale shadow of what the Septims were. What personal sacrifices have they made for Tamriel?

You still have not provided the proof that more Nords are pro-Imperial. All you did was give a headcount of the people in the holds that the Empire holds at the start of the game, and those the Stormcloaks hold. You do not even separate Whiterun out as being neutral, as it is at the start of the game. As others have said, you are counting the Greymanes as Imperials? Why don't you count Ulfric as a pro-Imperial too? Or Galmar? That would be just as accurate as what you have. Oh, you also forgot to count all the Forsworn too. How could you miss that? They live in an Imperial-held province at the start of the game. So they are obviously Imperial supporters too. You are not offering proof of anything, except a population census.

If the Imperials had some overwhelming majority of support, there would not be a rebellion. It would have been crushed before it even started. The whole situation is based upon the two sides being equally matched, with many Nords sitting on the sidelines. You can hear Ulfric himself say this at the beginning of the civil war. "People are still weighing things in their hearts". It is a deadlock that only the player character can break. That is the basis of both civil war questlines. It is the dragonborn who decides the fate of Skyrim.

I meant to use scare quotes when referring to him as an "agent". He may not have been a true agent, but his actions were playing into the hands of the Thalmor as if he were. He was an *asset*... an unknowing "agent".

I haven't played a Nord yet, but if I were to, I think I'd join the Stormcloaks just to play in character. Imagining that I'm a youngster who grew up in a minor town/village in Skyrim, was easily influenced by my communities, raised to love tradition and culture, was an anti-establishment anarchist (a trait that most younger people tend to have), and a superficially avid worshipper of Talos (if not a contrite worshipper). In those circumstances, my Nord would probably idolize Ulfric and see no flaws in him.

On the other hand, if one played a 30-something Nord who grew up relatively well-to-do in one of the major towns that was always influenced by the Empire and had a mind on industry and profit, the mentality would probably be the opposite.

So, you could play a Nord on either side of the fence. It really depends on the backstory you give your character and how well you stick to roleplaying.


I agree with this.

There are definitely multiple angles from which you can play even as a Nord. My Stormcloak is a diaspora Nord, her back story is that she grew up in the Imperial City and like all good imperial citizens accepted the necessity of the WGC, decided to train as a battle mage despite family misgivings over magic, but eventually got disillusioned and decided to head to Skyrim to join the Stormcloak cause. Finding herself on a cart with Ulfric Stormcloak and saved by a dragon, then learning she is dragonborn, is too much WTF and leads her to believe that Talos sent her. So she's a bit of a born-again Talos worshipper, that was not her original motivation. I think it gives good backdrop to the game, however. It's moving to see Talos as a big brother of sorts, there is a kinship there because of the thu'um, and also a kinship to Ulfric for the same reason.

I got the impression early on that the empire is a goner. That impression just gets stronger throughout the game. No one seems happy with the empire. Then you get the revelations about the Blades and Dark Brotherhood. Not to mention later events involving the Emperor himself. Joining the empire is like hooking your chain to a wagon with no wheels, no horses, and infested with termites. Siding with the Stormcloaks gives you the opportunity to start wiping the slate clean and building a new empire. One worthy of the dragonborn. Neither side is truly worthy but at least with the Stormcloaks you can get a fresh start.

My Stormcloak was born in Skyrim, but grew up in Cyrodiil when her mother remarried and moved there when she was a few years old (her father was killed in the Great War when she was about 2 years so she never knew him). Her mother regretted leaving her homeland and raised her daughter to know about Nord culture and tradition, and Talos worship, which caused conflicts between them and her mother's new husband, who never cared much for his stepdaughter. When her mother died a few months ago, her stepfather threw her out, and having heard about the uprising, she decided she might just as well go to Skyrim to join the rebellion. Then she ended up next to Ulfric himself and got completely starstruck. (Currently she tries to convince herself that she's NOT falling in love with him - btw, no coincidence that he's a Great War veteran who's practically old enough to be her father, and she never knew her own father due to that war...)

But the ban on Talos worship is pretty much her major issue with the Empire. She was devout before she came to Skyrim, and is even more so now.

You mean you resorted to speculative hyperbole in the absence of facts.

Do you think for a minute that there's not a dossier on Torygg? As long as we're speculating, what do you think it would say? About him, or the Empire, or all those who collaborated with the AD to cede sovereignty and authority to a foreign power? To allow Thalmor agents (real agents) into Skyrim to dictate and enforce, at the point of a sword, rules and restrictions that go against everything the Empire is purported to stand for.

In RL, that's often called treason...or at least appeasemant.

Damn, that's a good backstory.


This is a great one, too. I love this forum.

Hey, if someone is a help to the cause of the persecutors with his/her actions while those persecutors encourage their behavior to further their means, they may as well be an agent, whether they know it or not. And when those persecutors use the term *asset* when describing you (meaning you are something of value to them to achieve your means), well... need I say more? He's a tool.

Ulfric is no more a tool of the Thalmor than the Empire is, everything the Empire has done from signing the WGC to the present has been an asset to the Thalmor and helped them further their goals. The Thalmor are present in Skyrim and for all we know throughout Imperial territory right now, operating with Imperial protection, only because the Empire agrees to allow it. Don't tell me they have no choice, there is always a choice.

If Ulfric is an unwilling, unknowing tool, then the Empire is both a willing and a knowing one. And I know which one of those is the least deserving of my loyalty and service.

Thanks. I also have a backstory for a planned character who will joined the 'Cloaks. A dunmer witch and mystic. Have to work out a few minor details there, though. But the main idea is that she joins the legion, then take the Jagged Crown to Ulfric instead, due to some very strong visions. She has a couple of other reasons as well (like revenge on the idiots who tried to execute her).

Well said.

I suspect Bethesda intended that these kinds of questions would arise during gameplay. Many seem unwilling to confront them however and instead fall back on distorting the truth and even unsubstantiated slander to distract themselves.

Depending on your alliances this may very well be to your advantage though (well, not really, as it has no effect what so ever, but for RP purposes). If you're in the Thieves Guild having your patron in charge on the city your headquarter is in would be a huge victory - granted she runs the city already, but it's nice to have it on paper.

But if you're a good guy, this might not be too good. However if you're joining the Stormcloaks Markarth gets sacrifaced to corruption as well. Riften is a lost cause(within the game), Markarth can be protected.

As for the OP's question very little changes. If you join the empire 4 Jarl's are changed, if you join the Stormcloaks4 Jarl's are changed. At the end of both storylines you will fight and kill the leaders of the opposing army. Whiterun will be damaged no matter which side you join. Joining the empire will cause harm to Windhelm, joining the SCs will cause harm to Solitude - however both cities will still be fully operational. None of the camps on either side will be affected by the war, though you can clean out everyone but the commander on all.

The only true change is, as some have stated, that the thalmor will more or less be thrown out of Skyrim - oddly enough their embassy+torture castle are in no way affected by this. I actually think having the Thalmor around is a big plus, as it's so much fun killing them.

Save Maven(depending on player's affiliations) I'd say all the imperial Jarl's/governments are superior to their stormcloak counterparts:

Original - Replacement:

Dawnstar - Skald (stormcloak, just an old geezer, decent enough Jarl I suppose) - Brina (imperial, ex-legionnaire, a strong Jarl, with a realistic view of current events)

Falkreath - Siddgeir (imperial, spoiled brat who doesn't do anything for his people, however he let's his very competent steward take care of affairs) - Dengeir (stormcloak, ultra-paranoid elderly man who distrusts everyone in the hold)

Markarth - Igmund (imperial, a strong and competent Jarl though nothing too spectacular) - Thonar (stormcloak, corrupt ass who wants his family to own and rule the entirely of the reach)

Morthal - Idgrod (imperial - though impartial to who wins the war, however she does seem to play it up to the Thalmor, attending their parties, etc. Seemingly slighly crazy and eccentric, but it would seem her "gift" is true) - Sorli (stormcloak, this one might be better depending on your views, she seems competent enough - though she is utterly flavorless)

Riften - Layla (stormcloak, lazy and stupid, does everything Maven says) - Maven (imperial, corrupt ass, but in charge no matter what)

Whiterun - Balgruuf (imperial, competent and independent, even allows open Talos worship in his city) - Vignar (stormcloak, perfectly ok Jarl, if not a bit too old and lacking in experience)

Windhelm - Ulfric (stormcloak, strong Jarl but seemingly ignoring the rights and well-being/protection of everyone who isn't a nord) - Brunwulf (imperial, also a strong jarl, a war hero with a realistic and unfavorable view of war, wants to rid Windhelm of racism)

Winterhold - Korir (stormcloak, paranoid and spreads hatred and intolerance of magic/ the college) - Kraldar (imperial, tries to remove the fear of the college)

I think the story has made it clear that the Empire doesn't like enforcing anything for the Thalmor, they don't even like the Thalmor period, but they are honoring their end of the WGC (something that is honorable considering I wouldn't trust the Thalmor to honor it themselves) which effectively ended the war and preserved many more lives. Up until the Thalmor intruded on the private dealings of Skyrim (whether or not anyone believes that this was because of Ulfric and the attention he raised is irrelevant), the Empire wasn't doing anything to enforce the ban on Talos worship, which, for me, would be the ultimate purpose for an uprising.

Yes, the Empire is a tool as well... but they are biding their time and they authentically do not enjoy the yoke placed on them by the WGC which they only agreed to under duress from the thought that not ending the war meant even more widespread destruction and loss. Whereas, Ulfric is a tool because he's stupidly playing his cards exactly how the Thalmor want him to. He's a hothead, his movement is disorganized, he can't even get the whole of his own people to back him when, based on the religious persecution and cultural destruction brought by the Thalmor (and apparently aided by the Empire), should be enough to unite all of them against their oppressors. But it is Ulfric whom half of his own people fail to trust. If there were a different leader of the rebellion, perhaps it would be easier to unite Skyrim, but the fact that they don't like him for various reasons from believing he has alterior motives to he is just a megalomaniac leads me to believe that those theories are not altogether false. His behavior (not going to mention any spoilers) also lean in that direction.

Actually I do know they want to fight them but they are spread thin , they satted so themselves, they are weak and can't even hold their own province , even if they did rebuild quicker it's kind of hard to plot against your oppressor when he is in the room with you during every decision you make and has spies everywhere + I already stated it was a waiting game , only problem is both are waiting , Oldenemor at elenwens party states the truce is only until they are strong enough to finish the empire , all in game texts show how weak the empire has become ( see ciceros journals ) , even in the DB quest you can see , who was the emporers personal gaurd ? a handful of gaurds , half of which were drinking , on a boat and no one in his chamber with him , Mede even stated he knew there was nothing he could do despite only having a hunch that one member of the DB survived .....one , what does that say about the state of the empire.. he didnt even try to defend himself, also the thalmor took the empire in a surprise attack and still had to call a truce , the thalmor labelled ulfric as a dormant asset because of their unbearable arrogance , the thalmor cant even finish off a crumbling empire they took in a surprise attack , the stormcloaks get straight on to attacking them , they would finish them off as the thalmor already stated they arent ready and they have an active rebellion against them in hammerfell which is stated by the akir as "alive and well" , so well they could spare squads of men to track down one single person who sold out hammerfell to the thalmor , she already did her damage so she isnt a top priority , it shows the strength of the hammerfell rebellion.

so even if the thalmor did take cyrodill , the cities are run by bandits and skooma dealers , good luck conquering that while fighting the nords on the homefront as well as cyrodill and hammerfell , look at the map of tamriel and you will see the thalmor stand no chance , the empire needs to rebuild but the nords and redgaurds don't . if empire wins , by the time they are ready to attack the thalmor will be stronger again , time to let the pitiful mede empire die , even mede himself personified "meh"

Stormcloaks forever ! I'd rather die fighting for what I believe in than end up a fat svckled pig who was gorged on septims then had his throat slit by the thalmor when they got hungry again. Also no , Ulfric isn't perfect , but this isnt a miss universe contest , it's war and no jarl is perfect , nice doesn't win a war

What part of the WGC do the thalmor have to uphold? The empire never set any terms for them. The thalmor set the terms and the empire conditionally surrendered.

Also these two lines are mutually exclusive
"they are honoring their end of the WGC"
"the Empire wasn't doing anything to enforce the ban on Talos worship"


Where's the evidence that the empire is biding its time? The lines from legionaries? They don't control what the empire does. Tullius doesn't have any authority to declare war. That decision lies on Mede and the Elder Council's head, not the Legion. They've shown they don't care. They're continuing their internal power struggles just as they always have but are unwilling to actually address the thalmor issue. They've got their armies on the border in the hopes that it's a sufficient deterrant to further incursions. The empire could've let skyrim go amiably and had a powerful ally. They have just as much a hand in the starting of the war as Ulfric does.

Half the people in skyrim don't trust the empire either. Some people in Solitude even remark that they didn't think Torygg was even a good king. Most of the imperial sides aren't against Ulfric because they don't like him(Excluding Balgruuf). They're against him because they think they need the empire. You should talk to them some time.

Rumors and suspicions are just that. We didn't stick with the belief that the earth was flat just because people thought it was. The empire's been pouring out propaganda about Ulfric, it's not surprising some of it sticks. Some people still think the Bear of Markarth is a fully accurate depiction of what actually happened despite the numerous contradictions to it present in game.

The problem I see with your assessment is that you are assuming Uflric doesn't know that the Thalmor hope to gain an advantage through prolonged civil unrest in Skyrim and the Empire. I don't think any of the main players here are stupid enough not to realize that the Thalmor are going to try and turn anything and everything that happens to their advantage. One could just as easily assume (as I have) that Ulfric is doing what he's doing because his reasons for doing it satisfy him and his supporters and because he believes that the final outcome, if he achieves it, will be better for Skyrim in the long term and will nullify any short term advantages the Thalmor may have gotten from the current situation.

Or I could just as easily say that the Empire is stupidly playing their cards exactly how the Thalmor want them to, by using up precious resources fighting someone who would be a natural ally against their real enemy instead of letting Skyrim secede and then using that concession as a starting point in the formation of an alliance that would serve both nations well in the future.

As for the "hothead" thing... I've been hearing that about Ulfric almost from day one, and after four playthroughs (including both sides of the CW) I don't see anything from him that makes him stand out from the crowd in that respect. To me he comes off as a much cooler customer than some of the other main players, and frankly Balgruuf strikes me as being the one more likely to let his temper get the better of him.

What about the council? Anyway, he's leading a rebellion but fails to garnish the support he needs from his own people. Not exactly a William Wallace. What the Stormcloak rebellion needs is a William Wallace, not an Ulfric Stormcloak. I think that's the problem.

Wallace was betrayed by his own people you know. The nobles abandoned him at the battle of Falkirk too. Bruce murdered Camyn. The First War of Scottish independance wasn't a clear Scots vs English type thing. There were scots that supported English rule. As well as Lords and Nobles that didn't want to be involved in the war.

What about it? Everybody there acts like somebody pissed in their cornflakes that morning. It's called "diplomacy."


And the Legion doesn't have the local recruits it needs to win either. Nobody has what they need to break the stalemate until the Dragonborn picks a side.



Well I can tell you that the day Mel Gibson is cast as the liberator of Skyrim, I'll join the Legion at the first recruiting station I pass.