I'm not sure if you know but if it is like this then... well, /sigh

Weapon damage, is it simply: Weapon Base Damage x Skill Level x Perks?


Except the Orc still does the exact same damage, with or without Perks, with a spell or a sword that a High Elf does.

And the one a day racial powers? Being as they are once a day they have little bearing.

That's why they are identical. A Firebolt from a High Elf does the exact same damage as a Firebolt from an Orc, same as if each took a swing with a Great Sword.

The time it would take to get an Orc to match a High Elf in magic would make it more or less useless, which is something I'm fine with. Impractical classes based upon race are far more interesting than every race being good at everything. However that doesn't require numbers to do.

Beth shouldn't look to Obsidian as a model for anything

And an Orc got higher skill level than an Altmer at char creation so he does more damage than them from the start.

I'm pretty sure that racial bonuses used to be a ton more significant in previous games, so that's what it's turning into.

I do find racial bonuses to be as significant than in previous games. I'm not sure why you think they aren't.

And yet the difference can be easily made up.

Should we compare Nord to Imperial, Redguard, Orc? As we were comparing polar opposites, where then is the difference between the middle ground? What makes a Nord stand out from an Orc, or from a Redguard?

Skills go up just by using them. Anyone can make up for the racial skill advantages just by playing. You would have to level to do so in previous games. This would be akin to if say Races started with certain Perks. That would be a lot more meaningful and much more difficult to make up for. As far as other racial bonuses go, you have Breton - and everything else.

Yes because all it takes really is some training. An Altmer with some training in weapons will be better with them than an Orc that spent all his time since the opening reading books. I don't see what's wrong with it really.

Giving crippling deficiencies to races for some tasks paradoxaly hurts diversity a lot more than you think. The ability to make a very viable and good Altmer barbarian or Orc firemage is in my opinion a lot better than having the : Altmer = Mage, Orc = Barbarian stereotype written everywhere.

A Nord is 50% resistant to cold. It's a pretty huge difference if you ask me. Also, orcs are green and slightly taller than them. Oh and most people you meet in Skyrim will be somewhat friendly with you when you play a Nord, not when you play an Orc.

Even racial bonuses such as High Elves doing 5 additional points of damage to Destruction spells could have made a large difference.


Let me make this simple for the first part:

Lack of achievement. Currently a High Elf does not have to work as hard, or even very hard at all, to be on the same level of an Orc in the melee damage department. Lack of achievement.

A Nord is 50% resistant to cold... and? How does that help him when facing off against a Storm Atronach? NPCs will be "friendly" to you... ok, in what meaningful way? Discounts at stores? Offering up additional rewards for quests or requiring no quest at all for entry into a place? Maybe they offer you to spend the night, for free, in their home? No, none of that stuff?

So again, please tell me the real differences between an Orc and a Nord aside from just color. This is a fantastical game, surely you can come up with some sort of meaningful point.

If things didn't change, we'd all still be playing Zork....

There was bonuses to attributes as well as skills. Being that racial powers seem more powerful in skyrim, it sort of makes up for lack of attribute boosts.

Because adding a small and nearly meaningless effect that is nearly impossible to differentiate from having nothing at all makes a large difference? I don't think "large" means what you think it means.

Admittedly, yes... five was too small a number, but apparently you didn't get the point I was making.

A damage bonus that is natural to High Elves and no one else was the point.

As would be things like... additional Health/Stamina % based on how much magicka you have.

An additional small bonus to Health/Magicka/Stamina even if you don't choose to upgrade one on level.

An additional bonus to X because of X.

Etc.

It's, iffy. Although it could be done, it's still not very convincing for a few reasons. There's not really much to say in the lore that Altmer get more damage out of Destruction magic. They are known as good mages overall, not only in Destruction. What kind of bonus would you give them for the other magic schools? It's much harder to devise such bonuses.


Also, please note that a small starting bonus of +5 to a skill at birth has actually a VERY strong effect in the corresponding skill. That's because untrained, someone with a +5 racial bonus in a skill starts the game with level 20. Which means that untrained in such skill, you can still put two perks or more in it than a race that starts with no bonus for that one. It does have a nice ring to it in that if I train my Orc mage in Destruction there won't be much at all for an Altmer mage to pretend to be much better than me, thus furthering the idea that training overcomes birth in the Elder Scrolls world. But without training at all in, say, Restoration, just by using two perks in it an Altmer will display much better capabilities in that field. +10 in a magical skills even means you start the game at Apprentice spell level already! If that's not significant at all, I'm not sure what is.



Once again, I'd like to restate the fact that the Elder Scrolls game world leans on the side of the fence that says that training trumps birth. You can go all angry at that notion, nothing good will come out of it because that view and the oposite and BOTH very valid ways to construct a game world. You cannot say one of "realistic" and the other and both ideas produce working and plausible game worlds. I'm happy to have some games try the "training about birth" vision for variety.

Also, the player character is the one that blurs the difference between races mostly which is perfectly justified because such differences aren't god imposed absolutes in the first place! They are laws of averages mostly : the orcs are on average stronger and better with weapons than altmers. But the player is as far from the average member of his specy you can get so he's allowed to be an Altmer stronger than any orc you can meet in Skyrim as long as you build him for that.

wow this thread got a part 2 and is on page 5 already, interesting.

Then you don't really have to do it purely on damage base alone. What High Elves to just generally feel better as Mages while separating them more than just with a +50 Magicka? Then, as I suggested, additional Stamina based on amount of Magicka you have. Small but constant bonuses to Magicka on Level Up even if you don't upgrade Magicka, that eventually gives High Elves a Magicka pool far higher than any other race at end game.

I said +5 damage, not +5 skill. Training could still catch up to, or perhaps overcome, birth.

And again, I never said making a highly gifted/powerful Warrior out of a High Elf should be impossible. I said it should be hard. Right now, it's not that hard.

This, this, this. This is why everytime people say "well the streamlining is because of the limits of voice acting, that's why characters aren't as fleshed out and there aren't as many options" they are wrong. New Vegas is the perfect example of this.

And I agree about just fleshing out-but truly fleshing out-certain characters, and leaving minor ones as just generic NPCs. Is it worth being able to exchange a unique line or two with most Whiterun residents, at the extent of having any truly meaningful Whiterun residents? I don't believe so.


Why? Are you saying Bethesda is superior in every way to Obsidian? I don't think anybody could believe Bethesda has better writing, or character development, than Obsidian.

And it's so much different when every NPC in a town says the same exact thing when you click "rumors" in Morrowind?

That's kind of the point.

It should have evolved by now.


Again, it should have evolved by now.

All races can do the same amount of damage in Morrowind also. One just gets a slight, insignificant boost to start off with.

That is -exactly- what an Attribute is...

The point is Morrowind can be improved upon. You could have hundreds if not thousands of rumors in text, but it's not feasible to do that with voice acting. It's too costly both with time and money. In one day with one person, you could come up with a hundred rumors to put in a game and link them all to a quest. With voice acting, you have to search for talent, cast that talent, write a script, record and process, then link those voices to a quest. That takes months.

On top of that, the player can't customize the game (something that has been a staple in Bethesda's history) because it's strange to have a game with full voice acting and then NPCs who don't say a word. It breaks the immersion and comes off as shoddy.

This.

In text based, two different NPCs could give you two different rumors that are linked to the same quest. And it's a simple writing of text. No need to hire an actor, pay the sound guy extra, etc.

Except - it doesn't

Every conjurer is the same as all others. Everyone who uses a Long Blade is the same as all others that do. Everyone who Sneaks is the same as all others who do too.

Skyrim allows numerous specializations within each skill, meaning there are not only 18 skills to master, but different specializations within each one. So 18 skills branches out to 36 skills / sub specializations (that's being conservative, as that's only *doubling* the 18 skills by assuming each skill has 2 paths, but many skills have multiple paths - I.E.: Conjuration has Conjuring, Reanimation, and Bound Weapons [3 paths], One-Handed has specializations for Blade, Mace, and Axe [3 specializations] along with power attacks and dual wielding [2 more specializations] - if we actually follow the actual math of each path each skill has, you'd end up with with even more than that)

Morrowind had 28 skills.

Skyrim has > 36 specializations.

So what has more now?