Again< was that with your Orc or your High Elf< being as they both do the same damage

You pretty much showed how its inferior to the previous system. There are no more inherent variables. No strength, agility, luck etc. You cant feel stronger, because you didn't get stronger. You just picked a perk that is nothing but a numerical value. The thing that advocates of the new system supposedly dread. It wouldn't be too bad if the perks effected everything that attributes did, but they don't. Therefore its inferior.

Which they would do after just a few levels in the other games as well...there was nothing stopping me from making a super-strong high elf in Oblivion.

No, but neither does a ton of numbers that are more suitable for calculators than character depth. As for lore based assumptions by your standard the problem is that the lore should define the ability, and potential, of every race so that if you're a orc you're only a warrior. You cannot (without extensive grinding) ever use magic, or enchanting.

Give the orsimer a trait so it deals bonus damage with hammers and maces. Problem solved.

Exactly this.

"I just hit Level 2! Alright! Now I automatically have 20% extra damage applied to my One-Handed Weapon attacks! And all I had to do was Smith 5 Iron Daggers!"

I think with the current system however we can reach a compromise. They should have included a General Perks tree that do not share Perks points with your Skill Perks. The General Perks tree would have a Branch for Magicka, Health, Stamina, and Race. The Race path would be completely unique to your Race allowing more specialization.

The problem I see is many people are somewhat upset at no numbers... because numbers create infinite depth. However that depth is merely an illusion as the real depth should be within the choices you are allowed within the world. The world is the main character of the game, it's what breathes the most life yet you have no real impact on it at all.

It limits modding. And games like Skyward Sword have shown voice acting isn't even necessary.

Such as what? Numbers in a menu? Hiding numbers and making a more realized world will always make for a deeper game

No, we are upset at no inherent variable, at losing variables that were there before, but are not covered by perks, or the three remaining derivatives of attributes.
Uh, most of the perks are nothing but numbers. You never needed a calculator, or spreadsheet for attributes. Seriously, who are these people that couldn't count to 100, understand representation, or notice the tangible difference between 20 Speed and 90 speed?

Know more about ES, newb.

180+ different perks is plenty of inherent variables...which are also defined by pre-requisite skill levels - another variable and pre-requisite perks - another variable

Doing a little bit of math here perks^skills^pre-requisites...I think we have a few billion possible combinations of those variables...

You have to keep in mind the self-proclaimed Loretards feel that there should be no game just a modified Second Life as having to play a game and advance their character breaks the "immersion" for them and they cannot be bothered with the core mechanics of RPGs.

Except Morrowind allowed for more choices within the world than Skyrim does. Your argument fails.

No, there is nothing stopping you from making a super strong High Elf. But it's harder and takes more dedication. That's the point. You shouldn't be as strong as an Orc with the exact same amount of training because then why pick an Orc in the first place? Orcs, in the end, are always going to be just a little bit stronger than you in older games.


Where exactly did I say Orcs have to only be Warriors and cannot be Mages? Orcs are born physically stronger, as it's a racial trait, but you can train yourself in whatever job class you want. Read about, what's the point of ever picking an Orc if a High Elf can easily match your strength? It boils it down to nothing more than "do I want to wear red socks or blue socks?"

Not enough info

Doing what? With what? At what level of skill?

In this game an orc character doesn't do 'the same' damage as any other character. The player character is allowed to excell as the player plays. What you're saying is that an exceptionally strong Altmer does the same damage as an exceptionally strong Orc, with the same quality weapon, same skill.

But while you think it's not "natural", this is the player character, not all characters. Looking at it the other way, why shouldn't I be able to play as a supernaturally strong Altmer who can deal out damage with any Orc alive, if that's how I want to RP my character? Or as the smartest, most skilled and wise Orc mage in history, rivaling any other, man or mer?

if you don't want that ridiculously strong mer, don't build him that way. That the system allows it isn't really the point. Choices mean, by definition, the ability to make choices that you might not like

I can't beleive that so many people took this same example and were able to take it to show a failing. The old system imposed limits you couldn't do anything about. If RPing is your thing, and 'complex' is good, then how come you can't just do the complicated thing, and make an RP rule for your altmer that limits those skills you don't want him to have?? The game Skyrim allows that. So you want the game to force you into things like that? Is this is the same group that posts about a lack of choices, how the game forces you into things, etc? It is either simplistic or it is not. It either forces you into things or it does not.

What you're telling me is you liked a previous system, bam, end of discussion. That's fine you can like what you want but the rationalizations I'm reading are not logical in my opinion. If you were to tell me "I like MW's way because it feels right", then I'm all for you having a MW like system. These reasons I'm reading though...no, I'm not on board. And I'm not on board for the simple reason that each game has been different. A new way of doing things. And I like that. I don't want the previous game re-packaged and re-done with a new plot. I want to see the new take, do it the new way, work with the new system, see what it does and doesn't

He means some perks don't increase speed, for instance (as far as I know). Therefore it has been deleted and that's what he's complaining about.

That's not inherent is it. Perquisites are not inherent. And, as Ive already said, all of the variables effected by attributes are not covered in perks. We got less. Also, I wonder if people going on about perks and how they diversify, have really even played Skyrim? More than half are just numbers, the same numbers you apparently hate. another fourth or either things in previous games, represented in various other means, or magical reduction prerequisites.


I am a lore master, and I couldnt care less about imurshunz.

I know and like I said before, if it were text-based, imagine the storylines and quests the modding community could design. Not only that, they would fit seamlessly with the game.

Im sure pen and paper d&d players complained about video game rpgs when they first started becoming popular. The idea of progression is to move away from bland number laden menus once technology allows you to do so. I rather see a dragon attacking a large city randomly then swinging a sword at animated cardboard hoping my skill will cause said sword to hit.

I don't think you understand what "inherent variables" are.

Honestly, you all seem to be whining about nothing. There are skill trees instead of classes and they're a bit watered down, but the weren't completely eviscerated as you all seem to think. This isn't anywhere near the level of "streamlining" Mass Effect 2. At least there's still an inventory system of some kind.

Where and when does that happen in Morrowind besides the option to kill anyone despite them being essential? Examples

I guess you've never mind maxed before. Anyways I understand that not all numbers can be eliminated however you'll notice that the numbers that have an actual effect on your character are percents rather than numerical values ranging from 0-100. The point is now that my character is no longer 79 points strong, he is 10% stronger because nothing in real life is based upon 79 points. When I lift weights I'm not getting 5 points stronger I'm increasing my strength by X percentage. That's why if feels more organic.

Apparently you missed the point entirely.