Constant removal of features, Pt. 2 : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:09 pm

They're not going to go back to text-based dialogue. If they did, America would say 'Ew, reading,' because reading hurts the brains of the majority of the gaming market(younger people).

I don't care if they do go back to text, but let's not pretend that every NPC saying the same thing over and over and over again in Morrowind was somehow more deep and complex than Skyrim.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:04 am

My example is not ridiculous, because if I didn′t want my character to miss out on the attributes that made the character into a unique, developed character, I had to constantly monitor the skill progression and avert my attention from the in-game motives of my character in order to raise certain skills before I level up - that IS powergaming. Roleplaying means I am actually trying to act as the character would in-game and develop the characters traits and skills to match my vision of the character, Skyrim does this MUCH better since I can pick the perks that define my character without grinding out certain skills every time I progress in level.

Never had to do that in Oblivion, even with terrible level scaling.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:10 pm

The only skill grinding i even did in oblivion was the sneaking around a sleeping person bit. By the time i went and made a sandwich i was up to level 50 already.

I wonder if that still works in skyrim or not?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:27 pm

My example is not ridiculous, because if I didn′t want my character to miss out on the attributes that made the character into a unique, developed character, I had to constantly monitor the skill progression and avert my attention from the in-game motives of my character in order to raise certain skills before I level up - that IS powergaming. Roleplaying means I am actually trying to act as the character would in-game and develop the characters traits and skills to match my vision of the character, Skyrim does this MUCH better since I can pick the perks that define my character without grinding out certain skills every time I progress in level.

Except... in Oblivion if you wanted your character to be a skilled acrobat you had to take the time to train in it... which would fit to the in-game motive.

Many perks in various skill trees also disagree with you. Smithing has no character conceptual depth at all to it, it has absolutely no character definition in it whatsoever.

For what? Elder Scrolls? When I said younger I didn't mean just kids. Young advlts are more stupid these days too.

Of course, to counter the argument of why there should be text-based dialogue in the game again, one can say that it kills the immersion, especially for a game with this kind of technology.

No, the gaming market as a whole. The large majority is 18+.

And to counter that text-based point you made, not all dialogue has to be text just as not all dialogue has to be voice acted.

We had actually have much more immersion if NPCs reacted to our characters more naturally rather than having NPCs saying "BY THE GODS!!!" when we ask to see what they have for purchase.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:54 pm

Which is truly truly sad yet true. I jumped right into games as complicated as Morrowind when I was a child, they can as well.

Morrowind is not complicated.

At all.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:18 pm

I rarely (if ever) had to "grind" in Oblivion or Morrowind, so I don't see your point.

To expand on your point, why would anyone who wants to have fun want to 'grind' in a game anyway? The fun of a game is the journey to the end, not just the end. Otherwise, developers should just make games with God mode turned on. There, game over. Wasn't that fun?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:13 pm

I don't care if they do go back to text, but let's not pretend that every NPC saying the same thing over and over and over again in Morrowind was somehow more deep and complex than Skyrim.

But they said SO much more over and over again...that′s more fluff = more complex :blink:

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:13 am

But they said SO much more over and over again...that′s more fluff = more complex :blink:

They didn't even say "so much more"

I get more information listening to the "limited" voice actors than I did reading a couple lines of written text.

People are confusing the fact that you had to read in Morrowind with more "complex", simply because you had to read instead of listen.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:50 am

If conversation was text-based you could still have a variety of voice acting for generic responses, much more so than Morrowind. It's just that the game wouldn't be constrained to only having voice, which limits options.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:42 am

Morrowind and Dagger were definitely more complex and deeper than Skyrim.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:47 pm

If they're creative and willing enough, they can design a game that looks simple on the surface to appeal to casual players, but has the option to delve deeper into content for hardcoe RPGers. Skyrim made a nice attempt, but it turned out a little skimpy for the hardcoe RPGer who enjoys something along the lines of Morrowind.

Ive sunk hundreds of hours into Morrowind, yet i wonder where is the depth and complexity that is supposedly levels beyond Skyrim? If i recall correctly there was always the same npcs wandering around the same cell pacing back and forth. Caves, dungeons and dwemer ruins all were modeled the same. Repairing weapons consisted of selecting a hammer in your inventory. Combat was wooden. Quests were extremely linear.... At least fighters guild and mages guild from what i remember. Overall it was still one of my favorites, but i dont blame bethesda from removing some of the crappy filler stuff and adding a more detailed world. If i want to wade through 6 dialogue choices everytime i chat with a npc only to reach almost the same solution, and explore a game world the equivalent of a fenced in backyard ill play dragon age again

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:24 pm

Never had to do that in Oblivion, even with terrible level scaling.

Not if you just wanted to play the game, because you did just fine by simply going with the game and not worrying about it. But if you wanted a specific type of character, say an extremely agile and intelligent assassin, you somehow had to keep grinding intelligence skills like restoration in order to improve intelligence. If you just ignore that number on the stats chart and decided that you will just play your character as if he is intelligent, then it didn′t matter, but then it doesn′t really hurt that they took away that feature either.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:43 am

If conversation was text-based you could still have a variety of voice acting for generic responses, much more so than Morrowind. It's just that the game wouldn't be constrained to only having voice, which limits options.

I prefer text based just because I can read much faster than I can listen. I don't want to have to sit through some long dialogue, but I want to also be able to get a complete understanding of the current interaction. The game isn't deep enough or even have real rammifications for dialogue selections however, so I just end up skipping it as fast as I can to get to playing the game. Which is sad, because I like Bioware games' dialog.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:03 pm

Not if you just wanted to play the game, because you did just fine by simply going with the game and not worrying about it. But if you wanted a specific type of character, say an extremely agile and intelligent assassin, you somehow had to keep grinding intelligence skills like restoration in order to improve intelligence. If you just ignore that number on the stats chart and decided that you will just play your character as if he is intelligent, then it didn′t matter, but then it doesn't really hurt that they took away that feature either.

Nope, all I did was hardcoe RP, made literally hundreds of them in Oblivion alone. Never had to min/max, power game, meta game, or worry about multipliers. I played how my RP would play, and things worked out just fine.

Level scaling is a [censored], but that has nothing to do with attributes.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:15 pm

Morrowind and Dagger were definitely more complex and deeper than Skyrim.

I would probably agree with that too. When the conversation is text-based, you can word conversations in such a way that each response has it's own flavor, similar to the way the books in Elder Scrolls are written by different authors. Voice acting requires finding skilled (and expensive) actors to play the voice, which can sometimes make the NPC sound unconvincing, either as a result of bad acting or because the voice is over-used (Skyrim guards).

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:21 am

I would probably agree with that too. When the conversation is text-based, you can word conversations in such a way that each response has it's own flavor, similar to the way the books in Elder Scrolls are written by different authors. Voice acting requires finding skilled (and expensive) actors to play the voice, which can sometimes make the NPC sound unconvincing, either as a result of bad acting or because the voice is over-used (Skyrim guards).

I'm not even talking about dialogue, I'm talking about variables, features, tools and mechanics etc.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:05 pm

I would probably agree with that too. When the conversation is text-based, you can word conversations in such a way that each response has it's own flavor, similar to the way the books in Elder Scrolls are written by different authors. Voice acting requires finding skilled (and expensive) actors to play the voice, which can sometimes make the NPC sound unconvincing, either as a result of bad acting or because the voice is over-used (Skyrim guards).

"Are you looking to defend yourself or deal some damage?"

Same exact feeling for every character who says it.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:39 am

I would, in turn, argue that because Fallout New Vegas and to a certain extent Bioware games are examples of good RPG voice acting while not skimping on choices, Bethesda has really run out of excuses here.

The best solution, to me, would be to stop trying to make every single character unique because by doing so you drag down the quality of dialogue for the characters who are actually supposed to be unique. Instead, decide on a select few characters who will receive good attention, spend a lot of time making them stand out from the crowd, and just keep the generic NPCs generic. This is what Obsidian did, generic NPCs would only give you a quick quip before moving on while the characters that mattered were fleshed out and well realized.

Bethesda just tries to make everyone well realized. And as a result, the dialogue gets hamstrung. Makes since too, considering how muddled Skyrim's stories were. In short, they were trying too hard.

Except I saw lots of people complaining NPCs in towns were too quiet and didn't have the background conversations heard in Fallout 3. Let's be honest - if the NPC pvssyr was cut from Skyrim, people would be complaining it ruined immersion because the towns would sound too quiet and nobody says anything except you. I'm not disagreeing with your point because I think Obsidian's dialogue tapdances all over Bethesda's, but unless they double the amount of dialogue, people will complain something is missing.
However, I think it's not so much the quantity as the quality - Bethesda do not write very well and could use the dialogue they do have far better. FNVs characters weren't so much the amount of dialogue, it was they were very well drawn - just compare Cicero to No-Bark Noonan or Fantastic.
I personally would rather have no guards commenting on my skills like "hands to yourself sneak thief" and more on my race. My current dark elf character has - I was pleasantly surprised - had a few bits of unique dialogue based on their race. But not enough. I'd like more of that.

This talk of text only is IMO totally barking up the wrong tree - it's 2012 - computer games have talking - Bethesda are not going risk their immense sales by going all retro and turn Whiterun into a silent movie, however critically acclaimed that new silent film might be.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:54 pm

I'm not even talking about dialogue, I'm talking about variables, features, tools and mechanics etc.

Agree with that too. :biggrin:

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:53 pm

The new leveling system coupled with the lack of stats makes the game feel more organic and natural. I never cared for the fact that your character always seemed to be defined by a bunch of numbers making it feel artificial.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:58 pm

"Are you looking to defend yourself or deal some damage?"

Same exact feeling for every character who says it.

Have you tried mercenary work? It might suit you.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:23 am

The new leveling system coupled with the lack of stats makes the game feel more organic and natural. I never cared for the fact that your character always seemed to be defined by a bunch of numbers making it feel artificial.

So it feels natural that an Orc does the exact same damage as a High Elf?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Have you tried mercenary work? It might suit you.

Oh, god! I fetched his stupid [spolier] just to shut him up! :yucky:

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:20 pm

The new leveling system coupled with the lack of stats makes the game feel more organic and natural. I never cared for the fact that your character always seemed to be defined by a bunch of numbers making it feel artificial.

Amen to that! Now instead of a value that tells me my character is strong, I notice that my character is strong because he just sliced a bear in two with his two-handed skill and perks.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:07 pm

So it feels natural that an Orc does the exact same damage as a High Elf?

I have a major problem with that too.

After booting up Morrowind the other day ago after five years of not playing, it really put things in perspective. The races were much more specialized off the bat (or off the boat, rather) than they ever were in Oblivion and Skyrim. I even forgot that Khajiit and Argonians can't wear shoes! I miss that kind of variety.