In short, it means nothing short of trying to stroke your e-package? Good for you.


Hardly baseless assertion. Experience needs to fill in some of the blanks, I can't do it all. You honestly can't tell me that it's not easier to do something when you have less variables to account for? I mean seriously... Holy smokes.


Says the guy who's rhetoric was used. LOL!


You see what you want to see. It's far from baseless assertion. I mean what you're really asking for is video proof, which is something I cannot provide. Prove to me that acrobatic dodging is any good. I'd like to see you try.

Just so you know, I happen to to enjoy the combat system in Skyrim a lot and I overall agree with your point of view. But I take your point, you're trying to "pull the camera back" and convince another poster, one who does not like the combat system in this game (for reasons you believe skew that opinion) to consider another point of view. Good luck!

Bull. I use exactly the loot the game gives me as drops and I play on expert. There's no way that could ever be considered "skewing" anything.



Going by that logic, the core combat system also isn't directly related to a player's ability to run backwards. The game doesn't directly support dodging through any active mechanics, and melee enemies sure as heck don't ever attempt to dodge other than sometimes running backwards. All the combat system supports is choosing between regular attacks and power attacks. Locational damage doesn't matter. You can't attempt to disarm someone or sunder their armor or weapons. You can't daze enemies with blows to their head, or disable their weapon or shield by damaging their arms. You can't pin an enemy down with hits to the legs and kite them around as you finish them off with arrows. And enemies can't do any of this to you. They don't even try to ambush you, you can't get behind enemies so they can't block you.

All you can do is run up to someone and click the same button over and over and over again. Sometimes you need to run up to them multiple times, and sometimes it makes sense to run backwards a bit yourself. If you think that amounts to deep gameplay then congrats for you, you're apparently really easily pleased. You should try playing Diablo 2 sometime, seems right up your aley if yo ucan get over the dated graphics. But there are people that want more, and it wouldn't be difficult to do so without changing the game's scope.

I would imagine the person stroking their e-package would be the one claiming to have more understanding than everyone else.. without proving anything of course.

Less variables means something is easier to measure. Against an opponent, less variables probably means that as the player things become harder to do, as you lose the advantage you had in speed. The emphasis on combat is blocking and not footwork. In no way is the footwork more important now than before.


It was sound in its original use, it was poorly misapplied in your reply. So yes, I do say you fail at rhetoric.

video proof wouldn't be necessary if your reasoning stood up under scrutiny, which it doesn't. You're trying to argue that being slower makes footwork more important, when in reality it makes footwork less viable, and instead increases the necessity of blocking, or having enough damage output that blocking doesn't matter.

the problem i have with melee combat is how unresponsive it feels. i click and my attack takes several seconds and seems like i am trying to swing my weapon through water. i know that is more realistic and artistic to have a muscled out nord's each attack be overdrawn/over dramatic attack. but its not functional.

i prefer oblivions, even morrowinds to skyrims melee attacks. sure oblvion melee was nothing better than your character swinging their arms like a windmill, it was not realistic and seemed silly and weak, but it was functional. by which i mean, when i clicked to attack, i attacked. not clumsily grunt and take three times as long to make a dramatic swing.

so far i only like using daggers for melee since they're the only weapon thats speed is function, by which i mean when i click to attack i attack, although even so with daggers there is much more delay than there should be.

also blocking is gimped, i don't understand how enemies attacks damage is not reduced when my sheild blocks it completely just because my timing does not match with the games blocking mechanics. even though visually its plain as day that my sheild should have deflected the blow.

That's a good argument for why this game is too easy under certain circumstances. Definitely not a good argument as to why Skyrim's melee combat system is all mindless slashing.


Hardly the same. You're not using logic at all with this statement.


Movement is what I'd call an active mechanic. Surely this is not a turn based game, no?


Enemies don't do many things. They're not the player character. This is not logic, this is madness.


If you're to be narrow minded about it, sure.


So what? Given the current system, it wouldn't really help melee combat in any way, shape, or form.



You can't be Superman. Herp derp.


This isn't Fight Night oh my! :mindblown:


People always want more. More more and more. In any case, I find it quite laughable that you think you're in a position to say that it wouldn't be difficult to make the combat system better than what it already is without changing the game's scope. I mean... this might be a little too obvious but... Don't you think that if they could have done a better job, they would have? O.o ... The combat is fine all things considered. It's proper for the genre and the style of play. Feel free to disagree, but you're highly inaccurate when you say it's just mindless slashing.

I actually like the combat in Skyrim.. especially how they added in those nice cut-scenes with finishing moves.
The only issue I have is the extreme lack of spells for mage characters. There are hardly any compared to Oblivion.

the combat system isnt bad
but its not good either

Hardly stroking when it's accurate and relevant to the discussion at hand. I don't appreciate your e-gang up tactics you e-thug!


Prove to me that the emphasis on combat is blocking and not footwork.


Of course you'd say that. I wholeheartedly disagree good sir.


Falls on deaf ears it does. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying I imagine. I'm saying that normalized (Not necessarily slower, but normalized and not highly variable) movement translated into footwork being far more important in Skyrim than it ever was in Oblivion. You don't need to play the game that long to realize this. I can't explain it any differently without going into video proof.

"Footwork" is a euphimism for strafing or backpedaling. You say it is not a mindless slashfest, another person here called it a mindless slashfest. I said, both of you are embellishing. It is not a mindless slashfest, but it is extremely shallow and one-dimensional. I am not saying the combat system is bad, it isn't. It is just incredibly limiting and repetitious. Further, the most efficient and "best" mechanics are not really mechanics at all, but either the exploitation of poor game design and/or poor AI.

I went into a pretty fair amount of detail describing this. I am not blowing things out of proportions or making unrealistic claims or suggestions. Active Dodging, which I described, is more or less already in the game. Silent Roll (while not perfect) is 90% the way there to being how Active Dodge should function. Counter-Attacks and Parry/Disarm we described and how that might work. This isn't a new idea, plenty of games have this. I think both of these examples can be found in The Witcher 2. (I am not saying it should work exactly like this) As far as Magicka is concerned, the most efficient and "best" method of dispatching pretty much all enemies is to dual-cast spam Incenerate with the Impact Perk. Yes, you can do other things - but they provide inferior results and are not just an alternate path. Magicka should be a diverse system and spells should synergize A LOT better, prompting players to tailor spell casts to be situational and to create cast cycles, rather spam the same attack. Combat Skills, would be a little more difficult to implement into TES. These would be active attacks made either by a melee or ranged player that applies status effects or does something different besides auto-attack or power attack. Exploding Arrows, Whirwind, Stomp, Bash, Cleave - etc. The list is almost endless, but implementing those into Skyrim is a little more tricky than your standard RPG game where most things are not Active.

Footwork means proper use of movement. This proper use of movement can be used to avoid attacks or attack yourself while taking no damage.


I'd say it fits the genre. Never seen a game like The Elder Scrolls that has extremely well made melee combat. If you have, please point me in that direction.


You'll find that most melee combat systems have repetition.


That's subjective and you're using "exploitation" in a negative light. Yes, you're exploiting the AI but only in the sense that you're besting them. This isn't a multiplayer game so it's to be expected.


Silent roll is as poorly implemented as the acrobatic dodging in Oblivion. Very poor animation that makes it look awkward and out of place on top of being gimmicky.


Plenty of games are not Skyrim. Jedi Academy and Mount and Blade has many things that Skyrim doesn't have... but Skyrim has many things that Jedi Academy and Mount and Blade doesn't have.

Do I think that the combat in Skyrim can be improved? Sure. Many things can be improved and nothing is ever perfect. Personally, it would be stellar if Skyrim had the 7 direction attacks that Jedi Academy had with the blocks, parries, and counters you could execute in that game which was only made better with certain mods (Golden age of OJP, golden age of MBII pre v0). However, I'm fairly realistic about things. Bethesda is not that great at making great combat systems, systems which are mostly reserved for multiplayer games (JKA, Mount and Blade) or action games (Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry).

Honestly, you could probably count in one hand the amount of games that have great melee combat systems.

So basically... you don't want any skill involvement.

You must be a new TES fan. If you are see Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion.

I thought it was, and still is, awful to watch.

There is no skill or Perk tree called Footwork. Moving, is a part of any and all action adventure RPGs that are real time. This is not a developed system. You move away from your target to attack, you move toward them to attack. By moving, I mean walking or turning around and Sprinting.



That is giving the game a free pass. What genre are you exactly referring to? It is a real-time combat system. TES is not unique. The only reason it is unique is because of the size of game and it is not linear. I am not going to go research a list of games and cite you examples. I explained exactly how it could be successful, we do not need to cite precedent.




Not true. Most combat systems provide Combat Skills, this means something other than Auto-Attack. Heck, even stupid fighting games you have combos and Special Attacks you can perform!



I am using it in a negative light because it was meant to be negative. Pathing is terrible. Enemies get stuck in a loop and cannot get to the player. Enemies have limited spells and tools to kill you with. They are not very reactive and continue to do the same thing. They are very predictable and that is an issue. Being a multi-player game or not has absolutely NOTHING to do with this issue. To fix this, enemies need ranged attacks and some the ability to gate (summon you) to them or teleport to YOU to get around unfixable pathing issues that may appear. Also, by giving enemies more spells/skills/abilities and varying what they do - this makes them less predictable. I know that most targets are going to run at me and chase me trying to hit me and can watch them do slow power attacks. I know dragons will try to breath on me and to line of sight them, pop out hit them etc. It's like playing chess against the computer and it shows me what their next move will be...



Again, this is why I don't cite examples because you completely ignore the concept and only focus on how THAT example works or looks and automatically rule it out. It is not hard to envision this working correctly. The groundwork for it is there. It doesn't even need to be as dramatic as a roll...



I guess I am just confused on why you think why good combat mechanics are "mostly reserved for multiplayer games." Is that because the developers just svck ass that make single-player games? Yes, they do which is why they turn out a poorly made product in hopes the community will do all the work for them.

um...wut?

There is no skill or Perk tree called Footwork? So what? There's no perk that allows you to block or strike or breathe or jump ... I mean this is largely irrelevant. You're not going to sit here and tell me that some games don't have better developed movement systems (and therefore by extension better footwork implementations) than others. Experience tells me otherwise.


You're not because you can't. Are you going to pull out Two Worlds 1 and 2? I mean come on dude. Lets get real, The Elder Scrolls is The Elder Scrolls for a reason. Hardly a free pass in any case. If there's a cooking simulator I would expect it to be far greater than Skyrim's cooking system. Connect the dots from there.


There's still repetition. Just look at Mount and Blade: Warband, a well established melee combat game. Plenty of repetition. PS. This is not an MMO, there's no such thing as "auto-attack".


I disagree.


So basically you're not satisfied with the AI which includes several different monsters and creatures. Well, this is where we come back to... Your expectations are too high. The AI is vastly superior to that of Oblivion and like I said, point me in the direction of a game like Skyrim that has this superior AI and combat. Please don't point towards Two Worlds I or II.


The groundwork was there with Oblivion and they still managed to implement a variation of it terribly. Cheers to the hope of it being better in the next game.


This "poorly made product" sold quite well and received several Game of The Year awards so Bethesda is doing something right. And you're disregarding my "or" statement which referred to other single player games like Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry. Essentially, if you want superb combat, it's best to look elsewhere. You're unrealistically looking and expecting great superb combat from a game who's main focus is not combat and who's scope is very large.

These two factors give you all you need to know that combat is not going to be to the level of Ninja Gaiden or Devil May cry. Games that strive on difficulty, challenge, and combat. Game's who's sole purpose is to deliver a satisfying combat experience. It's not feasible to expect a game to have it all and to do it all ever so perfectly. Your expectations are way too high.

this...a thousand times this! These are what the Devs need to remember when making Elder Scrolls 6.

Translation: Not many games have great melee combat systems.

I love the finishers and cut scenes of my dual wielding warrior. Too bad there are no finishers with the bow! LOL It's a TES game, I wasn't expecting earth shattering combat techniques anyway. I was expecting to find myself in a huge, living, breathing world that I can explore to my heart content...

Legend of Zelda has a better melee system than Skyrim and it doesn't even touch the realm of Ninja Gaiden, God of War, or Devil May Cry.

You're not reading what I'm stating. Not many games have great melee combat systems. Re-read and think about what you responded with.

You're not getting the point I'm making.

My point is you are incorrect. Hence the "wut" when you said "I can count the great melee combat systems on one hand."

There is a Perk tree related to how blocking works. Blocking, is an active mechanic not a passive one. Striking, is active as well as governed by skill values and other variables. Jumping, breathing, and movement are fixed values. Some games do "control better" Skyrim, does not control that great, but it is better than many others. Most movement is fairly sluggish.


You do not need to compare "like" games. I am comparing "like" mechanics. Just because you do not have a first person view or Perks in Assassin's Creed, does not mean I cannot make an accurate comparison between this and Skyrim. Look how combat works in that. Counter attacks, dodging, and blocking. Can you not imagine how easy that would be to implement properly in a game as grand as Skyrim?



In Skyrim, no matter what enemy I am facing I use the exact same tactics. I sneak up, I shoot a bow and kill them. If they do not die, I turn and Sprint then shoot them until they do. It is completely RNG that dictates if I Stagger my enemy or Paralyze them. When I play my caster, I just spam Incenerate and keep them locked down. My Warrior I just Shield Bash when I want to attack and disrupt the enemy cast / power attack. I am rarely ever so much as touched. Where is the variety?


You honestly think the AI is good and pathing is good? Want me to post videos of me stepping on and off of a little bump of rock to get a Giant stuck in a loop and killing him at level 3? Want me to post videos of me killing entire rooms full of Draugr without them ever moving or noticing me and killing the "boss" in 1 hit before he even notices me? Want me to post videos killing multiple dragons at the same time by just Bashing them and laughing? Maybe my Conjurer who I just cast Dremora and go eat some food?



Don't worry I won't point towards the game and I am not. My expectations are too high? To ask for active dodging, parrying, some combat skills, and more spells with greater synergy is a lot?



What incentive do they have to improve anything when with just flashy marketing, [censored] that would take a bullet for Bethesda, and the fact they can just release a CK and don't have to EVER worry about developing their product? Of course they will continue to not really improve because people like you give them a free pass and put up with poor quality products.



This poorly made product sold well because of the established name TES has, the marketing for the game has been ridiculous, it is better than most games now (but that isn't saying much). To say this game's focus is not on combat, difficulty, or challenge is just crazy. That is what ALL games are fundamentally built around. Yes, the content and size of the game is large. But, these are just basic basic principles that make a game a game and not Second Life with levels and armor...