A mindless slash fest is exactly what the game is like for melee. A couple power attacks is all it takes to kill 90% of the enemies I run into.

It's funny you accuse other people of trolling, when your replies just consist of one line "you're doing it wrong" posts.

Please, tell us all of these tactics you're managing to come up with. I'm dying to know what I'm doing "wrong."

So because I point out the obvious I'm trolling? The person in question said that he may sound like a troll and I agreed with that sentiment, he does sound like a troll.

As to what you're doing wrong... for starters, you're participating in mindless slashfests and then crying that Skyrim's melee combat is only mindless slashfests.

Except the combat doesn't support anything other than mindless slashfests. I guess I could run in circles between every swing but there's absolutely no point in doing it and the game doesn't provide any tactical incentive to do so. You've got two choices in melee combat; doing a regular swing or doing a power attack. That's it.

I tend to compare skyrim to oblivion more than other games by other companies...Compared to oblivion the combat is awesome!

The combat doesn't support anything other than mindless slashfests? I disagree. It has enough intricacies for the genre. Honestly, your argument is weak because you're judging combat on the basis of a super character. If you can't die and you one shot everything, then yes, you can make combat a mindless slashfest. That's hardly an argument for combat being only a mindless slashfest.

There is one thing which disappointed me with the melee combats in Skyrim. Bethesda didn't seemed to have bother to ask the recently acquired Arkane Studio a few tips about it. Those guys probable made the best first person melee combat I've played with Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. That was dynamic, there was a lot of feedback and it felt overall quite credible and really gave the player the feel of a good fight against a battle hardened orc or an easy win against some stupid goblin.

Actually, no I'm not. I'm judging it based on a level 16 character that doesn't use smithing, enchanting, or alchemy. The only perks I've spent are in one handed and heavy armor, the only equipment he uses is what he gets from clearing dungeons (two dwarven weapens and a mix of steel plate and steel armor). This isn't a super character, I'm using exactly what the game gives me.

Not to mention that one shotting everything (which I don't) has nothing to do with the depth of the combat. Enemies could take 10+ swings to kill, it wouldn't have any affect on whether the combat was mindless click spamming. It would just mean you spend more time mindlessly click spamming and potion chugging.

You really don't get to call someone else's argument weak when your sole refutations are "I disagree" and "you're doing it wrong." I'd ask you again to give examples of how the combat system has any depth beyond running up to an enemy and power attacking them to death, but I know you won't give any becaues there aren't any.

Dark Messiah was a physics gimmick with a core melee system that was mediocre.

My argument has nothing to do with why your argument is weak. Furthermore, numbers do have an effect (To an extent) with how combat is perceived. If you're going around one shotting everything (90 percent of the enemies, per your own words), you obviously will not learn the intricacies of the combat system because you don't need to. I bet you play on Adept difficulty, no?

Nearly any combat system can become cheese when the player skews the numbers his way and ignores the intricacies of the combat system because he doesn't need to or does not care to learn them.

Weapon management is not an argument for better combat. And please don't tell me that you're praising the poorly implemented and poorly animated dodging from the acrobatics skill.

The point is that the concept of active dodging is solid. It might not have been implemented that well, but that does not mean you eliminate it. Being able to actively dodge is sorely missed in the game. Another great enhancement would be the ability to Parry/Riposte. Timing mechanics to disrupt an attack and throw your target off balance, disarming them, and/or counter attacking them would have been a great feature.

I agree with you about weapon management and repair. I don't think it is an argument for better combat, it is just a gold sink and annoyance.

Nothing you've said has anything to do with whether my argument's weak. All of your comments about skewing numbers and oneshotting everything are meaningless to this discussion because, as I already explained, I don't. For what it's worth (absolutely nothing), I play on expert.

The fact that you still haven't given one single example of how melee combat has any depth beyond running up to an enemy and spamming power attack just shows how you have no argument to support your claim and that you're just fanboying it up. Repeating the same thing over and over with absolutely nothing to back it up doesn't make it right, won't convince anyone else it's right, and is a poor way of saving face once you've realized you've jumped into a discussion you're clueless about.

That wasn't the point at all. He was stating that Oblivion's combat was better and he was stating active dodging as a reason. Nothing to do with concepts. I can't say I miss it when it was poorly executed in the previous game.

Plenty of dodging going on without the need for gimmicky acrobatic perks with poorly executed animations and functionality.

Not his point, but THE point. He has a point about active dodging. It gives players (especially ones who do not invest in blocking or cannot block) the ability to dodge quickly and in a more realistic manner than walking to the left/right or backpedaling. I don't care about how it worked specifically in Oblivion. Instead of arguing over trivial things like "which game is better" focus on the portions of a post that we can discuss in a constructive manner. THAT, we can talk about. I don't think you need Perks for Dodging, Dodging should be available to all players and consume Stamina to perform. Parry/Riposte and Counterattacks however should be Perk investment points found in 1H and particularly 2H.

I need to save face and my e-rep because if not I won't be e-cool with my e-buddies in this e-forum. Oh wait...


This following quote tends to make me lean towards the side that numbers are skewed in your way otherwise you wouldn't be able to do this. In any case, I'm not saying it's as complex and in-depth as a multiplayer game who's sole purpose is combat (Something like Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy), however, for the genre it's far from a mindless slash fest.

The reason I haven't further elaborated is because I'm not sure if I want to educate you when you're stuck with your narrow minded views.

Anyhow, I'll elaborate to some degree. Footwork and knowing your environment is important. Standing in front of your enemies and mindlessly slashing (As seen on Youtube) is not the recommended tactic. Learning enemy attack patterns so that you know when to move out of the way and when to strike. Shield bash counter attacking to inflict a bigger stagger on your opponent (If you block and properly time a shield bash after you've been hit, and it has to be with a shield, your opponent will stagger for far longer). Making sure that you can keep this up flawlessly for however long it needs to be kept up (Mental endurance). Learning when to sprint to get out of trouble and how to sprint to put you in a favorable attacking position. Etcetera etcetera.

I could go on but it'd only fall on deaf ears.

While exploration is a trademark feature of the TES series, to suggest that combat isn't just as intrinsic to the series is just naive. Without combat in a TES game you have a tech demo.

I suspect the reason combat hasn't improved much has more to do with the fact that there isn't a great deal you can actually do with first-person melee; that is, there's not much you can do without making it more complex than the average casual gamer is willing to learn. Plus, the limited amount of controls available on Bethesda's choice of lead-platform means that short of implementing fight-night style stick controls, there isn't any way they could give you full control over combat.

If it's not his point you should word your post correctly next time as to not have it be perceived that you were stating that it was his point. Active dodging is quite a broad term, why don't you narrow it down if we're not to use past implementations of active dodging?

Third person melee combat systems that I've seen have never used active dodging and have been done fairly well. A popular one is Mount and Blade. My personal favorite is Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy and some of it's mods. And I say third person melee combat systems because that's essentially what Skyrim is.

Oh Gods, no. I hated the combat in AC. That's the main reason I stopped playing that game. I enjoy Skyrim's combat much more.

Melee combat svcked to a large degree in Morrowind but it was still well received (In my opinion). Come to think of it, melee combat has svcked to a large degree in all the previous Elder Scrolls games. O.o . . .

Morrowind combat was turn based combat turned real time.

I think you and he are embellishing greatly. The game isn't a mindless hack and slash, but the combat is very one dimensional. If you invest in Blocking, yes all you need to do is Shield Bash your target to Stagger it and block to do the same. Timing that isn't difficult in the slightest. If you don't invest in Blocking - that entire mechanic isn't even an option. That leaves you with the second tactic, Backpedaling or sidestepping attacks. Not exactly a mechanic as much as common sense. It is obvious when your opponent will Power Attack and gives you plenty of time to negate this from happening. "Sprinting" to break combat or flee from combat further is not what I woulc call a tactic as much as common sense either. Derp, I am taking damage and almost dead or have multiple targets - or - I am out in the open and a Dragon is attacking, better go sprint and LoS and spam potions! Then you have Shadow Warrior to reset combat, which does not always work that great (Requires Sneaking 100 and top Perk). You also have Invisibility to try to break combat. That, does not make a combat system. It does not change the fact you either power attack, or do a fast attack. It is a very one dimensional and basic combat system.

There are numerous ways to improve this, particularly for Magic that would be quite easy to do which would be to add variety in spells and synergize them better to truly create viable tactics, not ones that have inferior results to say spamming Dual Incenerate stagger locking.

I know all about Morrowind's combat. I was merely hinting at the fact that combat is not as big of a focus as the quoted poster might think it is, otherwise it would be done far better.

What are you going on about with concepts? The ability to dodge, though implemented relatively badly, is still better than not having the ability to actively dodge. Sure, you can occasionally outmaneouver enemies without having an active dodge mechanic, but any poorly implemented mechanic which does the job is still better than none at all, and will save you from getting hit more often than 'dodging' without it, as the hitreg is plain poor.

Plus, I don't see how you can eliminate the weapon repair mechanic from combat, when combat relies directly upon it. That would be like saying endurance management is not related to combat, which it absolutely is.

I'm not embellishing at all. I even stated that the combat wasn't as complex as a game who's main purpose is multiplayer combat. In any case, just because something is common sense doesn't mean that it should be unaccounted for. Movement in Skyrim's combat is far more important than it's ever been in the series. Sure, it gets overlooked when numbers are skewed, but most combat systems fall under that type of scrutiny.