Let people have their say...you dont have to read this thread,nobody is forcing you to.

From what i've read & seen about DT ,it sounds better to me,and i also think it's the reason we have different ammo types.
Should make the game more interesting.....& if done right,should make you think more tactically about enemies....all good in my book

i hope everyone realizes that we could be wrong about everything we have said so far all we know is there is DT and the BASICS of how it works thats it.

I think we can assume it'll be implemented very similarly to how it was in the first two, especially given how they've talked about it.

DR is percentage based and applied last (i.e a DR of 10 will reduce total damage by 10%), DT will simply substract the same value before DR is applied (at least in FO1&2).

So a DR of 10 and a DT of 20 and incoming damage of 100 means this: 20 gets subtracted (leaving 80 damage), of which another 10% (8) gets subtracted, leaving a total of 72 damage.

It's almost like you still don't understand! The point was that you can set DT to filter out low level weapons whilst making you vulnerable to high level weapons. In this example, 15 DT achieves that. There is no need to increase the DT above 15, because the goal has been achieved. 15 was not proposed as a low-level DT, it was proposed as a high level DT, under Fallout 3 numbers.
The reason it does is because my example is based on 'The DT needed to make you immune to low level weapons' contrasted with 'The DR high level armour grants'. Assuming you want high level armour to make you immune to low-level weapons, then 15 would be an appropriate DT for high level armour.
...I despair. I really despair. The whole point was that 15 would be an appropriate DT to make you invulnerable to low level weapons but vulnerable to high level ones. There is no need to double or triple DT vs plasma because DT was set at 15 to be appropriate to filter out low level weapons. You can use DT to make the player not fear low-level weapons whilst being more at risk from high level weapons than under a DR system. Setting DT to 30 wouldn't achieve that end so it's a manifestly stupid value to choose. In fact, I don't know how you even got the idea 15 DT was supposed to be a low-level DT given it is more than 50% above the average damage of low-level weapons.

Let's restate the purpose of my example: My example was of how you could set high-level DT such that low-level weapons did less damage than with high-level FO3 DR values, and high-level weapons did more damage than with high-level FO3 DR values.
No low-level DT included. No NV values included.

Dt can and also will be set high ti filter out high level weapons too...not just low level. You really think there won't be ANY high level armor that protects against high level weaponry?

That would make you effectively invulnerable. Even a full suit of T-51b isn't indestructible.

What I don't get is if your fighting someone/something that has armor but no helmet than dt won't stop you from shooting above the neck even with really weak weapons especially since dr has been removed from the game.

Why don't we think about it this way. It wasn't later in the game, he just happened to wander across a random person with a plasma rifle because I'm pretty sure the game won't be leveled as much as Fallout 3. There.

Wasn't the point to demonstrate how DT works in comparison to DR, and not to state "there are no high DT armors"?

While DT makes sense to me, DR needs to also be in place. Reason, even though at a certain level, damage will not be felt, above that level, armor by it's very nature will reduce the damage that is received. Armor works by spreading the force across a larger area. For example, with a bullet proof vest, you are protected from the bullet penetrating you, but still get a bruise. Even a lower powered bullet will bruise you, just not as much. However no real damage is done unless there is a real powerful bullet that might break a rib.

I think it should be DT up to a certain level, the DR after that. However it might be hard to get the math to work in the game, so they went the route they did.

Yea damage protection is void if the person isn't wearing a helmet. With no DR in the game if you come across someone without a helmet than there armor DT doesn't even matter just attack above the neck.

I agree with using DT to a certain point and then DR after. Whichever system they do use, I hope it has a more visible effect on damage received than I have seen in most games in the past. DR/DT is one of those things that seems to be quite tricky to get right; too much and gun power diminishes, too little and it becomes invisible.

One thing I would enjoy is seeing more Special Effects derived from impacts by bullets and explosives. For example, a BoS warrior wearing Power Armor should have some bullets literally ricochet off the armor, creating a sparking effect and a nice ricochet sound and doing very little if any damage. Even if the effect was just visual with actual damage done based on whatever formula's are used in the mechanics, the Perceived effect of the bullets would be alot different for the player. If we shoot-up some raider wearing weak leather armor, bits of that armor should fly off when struck (not actual parts as that would change the model, but rather throw bits of debris off the armor in the same way that grenades throw tiny bits around that aren't actually objects you can later pick up). Heck even a splotch of blood could/should go flying from some shots as that happens IRL.

The problem right now with DT/DR is that it is an lagely invisible stat in a gaming world where the armor never shows the physical signs of combat, and thus damage dealt is also invisible until the NPC falls over or starts limping around. Seeing bullets ricochet off BoS armor would make me think twice about attacking them with small calibur weapons, and would add a very nice visual and audible effect IMHO.

Miax

One thing to note is we know from fo1-3 that lasers and much more so plasma and pulse are very different then bullets vs armor. We dont know HOW they have decided to handle armor piercing but we know they have it and very likely a fair number of late guns and special energy weapons have it even unmodded.

Well laser weaponry particularly is entirely based on heat. Most armours have metal components. Ow.

So if I get this straight, if a weapon does less damage than the DT it will not do full damage. But once the weapon does damage equal or greater than the DT it will always do 100% damage? Personally I really hope that Obsidian will reconsider and put DR back in together with DT.

It only makes sense to have both DT and DR on armor, otherwise the difference is really marginal

On a slightly related note-

In one of the gameplay videos, I noticed that the shield (indicating threshold) was actually removed after enough damage was done- does anyone know how this factors into the equation? Is armor depleted once it absorbs a certain amount of damage? Maybe this has to do with the condition of the armor being brought to zero? Having only played Fallout 3, I'm new to this concept.

I'll see if I can dig up the video and post it as an example.

Actually if a weapon does damage equal to or below the DT than it doesn't do less damage it does NO damage AT ALL!

You sure, I'm sure I heard one of the devs mention in one of the videos that you still do a little damage.

Yea I'm positive. Its weird that you can sit there at theoretically pump a million bullets at a piece of armor but say the weapon your shooting those bullets from does damage of 10 and the armor your shooting at has DT of 11 it will do ZERO damage. Bizarre...

No, http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-fallout-new/700685

Then this entire thread has been wrong!

You won't hurt the wearer. But, you may wear the armor down. Which, when it's condition decreases, so does the DT. So, you can't whittle the health away per se, but if you knock down the armor too.. Know what I mean?

Speaking of the shield is that red shield only there when the weapon your using does less damage than the DT of the armor?

Sadly, we get it wrong more than we get it right as a community on speculations like this

Even more sad is the fact that most of us will keep getting it wrong even After the game has been out awhile.

:facepalm:

GECKulation for the GECKinators!