You didn't mention arguing your points. You said that you never saw a Stormcloak argument greater than an Imperial one. I shot down every Imperial argument I read with that post, short of Argonian and Dunmer living arrangements.

Now, I've already mentioned there are no homes left. Someone else suggested the city is bigger in lore, but so is the nord population. The argonians openly admit to stealing from Nord ships, so why would they get special dispensation? A poster in this thread accurately commented that to give Dunmer homes, nords had to be unseated. The walls are old. The city is the oldest human city in the known world. There was no expansion to build more homes for the Dunmer, so the only logical conclusion is that old racist "nord only" Ulfric Stormcloak made Nords give up their homes for some Dunmer.

What a terrible man.

ignoring some of the plot holes and contrivances, i think the empire has already lost. they didn't need to surrender, but the treaty they signed with AD, the white-gold concordat is essentially an admission of failure on their part to protect their own empire. to vouchsafe an agreement with the AD, that essentially permits the dominion influence over a sovereign nation, impinging on the customs and culture of a people is kind of the reason why people go to war in the first place. this is also why conservative politics do not mix well with social issues. if they could find a way to extricate themselves from people's religion, or whatever social issue that isn't pertinent, they could probably rule unmolested. the empire really needs their own "establishment clause," although the united states has one and look how well we operate. it used to be the separation of church and state, now we have political parties of church/state. ridiculous.

the elves are either very savvy, or extremely petty. my guess is that the elves could care less about the whole talos thing and who the nords worship. i think the intention all along was to drive a wedge between the provinces where a civil war would be inevitable, which really only suggests just how dumb and reactionary the empire truly is.

Hey everyone, from what I hear we are getting close to the limit on posts. So once we reach the limit I will make a second thread for everyone to keep up the debate. Lets all remember to keep things civil and have respect for the forums.

Again, didnt call him a racist so stop harping on that point, it is irrelevant (for my decision to side with the Empire at least).

I try not to bother with arguing my opinion on this for two reasons;
1, is that been there done that and while both sides can present perfectly legitimate arguments and perfectly stupid arguments, people will believe what they want to regardless of the facts, so it makes the debate sort of pointless.
2, I accept that I dont have all the answers and am sure there are things I am missing on both sides, in the end I feel that my opinion is based on the best interpretation of available information I can make.

Im not here to debate you and you can interpret that however you want honestly, as most people tend at some point or another, myself included. I just added my two cents to the thread.

1 it was done centuries before ulfric was born. 2) when the developers made the game theuy didn't put any spair houses in any of the cities so where would those nords have gone? are they part of the of the "nameless npc bands" i.e. bandits, soldiers, hunters, bandit victims, etc or did they leave skyrim?

1) If he was a racist as people claim, why is he maintaining something that was centuries old when he had no reason to.

2) The game is scaled down so what you see isn't necessarly how Skyrim is or do you really think that there are 500 people in the entire COUNTRY? So assume that some were forced to live in other cities, they're beggars, or they live in the city when it is bigger.

Hmm... maybe the reason the Argonians steal occasionally is because they're underpaid, not allowed to live within the city walls, and their entire population has to live in one room. I'd want some way to get back at my employer if they paid me one tenth of what they'd pay others because of my race, and confined me to a warehouse outside the city.


Ulfric didn't do a damn thing. The Dunmer arrived after the Red Mountain erupted nearly 200 years ago. They've been a major part of the population of Windhelm for quite a while now, and have integrated themselves in the population. Ulfric didn't invite them, he didn't evict anyone, and he certainly didn't give them free lodging. The best you can say about the man regarding his actions towards the Dunmer is he practices benign neglect. However, to me that doesn't seem to be a great platform. He doesn't do anything for them, and they don't do anything for him, other than supply his people with food, goods, entertainment, managerial abilities, a place for drinks, and child rearing services.

If the Stormcloaks want the Dunmer on their side in this war, they should be reaching out to them, not the other way around. You don't get mad when someone you've done nothing for refuses to volunteer to help you. Instead, you offer them something to make them want to join you. Why do you think the Stormcloaks have rallied behind Ulfric? Because he offers them something they want, whether it be religious freedom, or a "liberated" Skyrim, or any number of other things? He hasn't offered the Dunmer anything, removing any motivation they'd have to join them.

*We have passed the 200 post limit*

O_O

your argument assumes that there HAS to have been nord kicked out when there is no actual evidence of this

It's a logical assumption. I doubt there was an entire quarter of the city completely abandoned (though that would explain the dilapidated state of the quarter). However, I doubt that they were kicked out without any form of compensation. Even if that were the case though, I don't think you could argue that as a point against the Dunmer, and more against the previous High-King of Skyrim or Jarl of Eastmarch.

it could have been commercial buildings but i agree with you mostly

Those things might not technically be part of the communist edict but it is a side effect. Regardless, I made what was supposed to be a funny comment and you have a couple of people in here who are taking a made up history from a video game and getting far too bent out of shape.

I sided with the Stormcloaks for two reasons.. my in-game wife "Aela" and the fact that those supporting the Empire walk around treating people like they are better than everyone, and in fact, they do think they are better. When you get right down to it, the Empire trying to suppress the beliefs of an entire race and region because they caved to the Dominion out of a position of weakness spells "loser" to me. So let me change my communist comment to, if you support the Empire, you are a loser.

ok now that i better understand what your saying i find it funny lol i disagree with you but it makes me chuckle

this was also my point. if you accept the plot "as is," without inferring political or ideological preferences to the narrative, the treaty is essentially evidence of the empire's loss to the AD. when the enemy, who you were just fighting, now begins to tell you what's what via a "peace treaty," at this point, it's every man for themselves. i don't agree with the storm-cloaks, especially when it comes to their stereotypical xenophobia, but i understand their need to resist at this point, probably even better than they do.

Ulfric isn't a racist, he's a nord, and like most nords he has some prejudices, but those can be easily overturned if one proves themself to him. For example a dunmer could do the stormcloak questline, and at the end Ulfric would consider you a hero. So he's not a racist he's just a nord. And tullius isn't racist either he just doesn't understand nordic culture and often gets annoyed with it considering he's probably under a lot of stress plus at the end of the imperial questline he talks about how he is beginning to like skyrim and he starts to show respect for the nords. So neither leader is a racist.

And i haven't heard anyone say Ulfric is working for the dominion, they consider him an asset because he started a war which is weakening the empire, they don't want either side to win they just want the war to go on forever.


Yes, the nords could easily defend skyrim, but even if they allied them selves with the redguards could they go across tamriel and defeat the thalmor? Probably not. So skyrim could remain, but the dominion would still be the dominent force. Also as ive stated, i support the empire because even if all the provinces joined forces to fight the dominion, and won, making most provinces in tamriel independent, things wouldn't go well after. Many provinces would be ravaged by war, people would begin to bicker and then tamriel would fall into chaos until a new empire was founded, that's how its always been.

The mods must be sleeping today

Shhhhh you might wake them... (<.<) (>.>)

Oh they care. They care very much. Eliminating Talos worship and "unmaking" his Divinity is but one of many steps leading to their (rumored) ultimate goal, which is to unmake the mortal world in which they have been "trapped" and return to the world of spirit. They believe Talos is an impediment to that endeavor.

It's really not a disagreement over who is and isn't a god. They believe in Talos and his power, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to eliminate him. The problem is that his elevation from Human to Divine validates and upholds the world of Man, which they want to destroy (or uncreate) even if it means killing every last person on Nirn (and the one Divine) who stands in their way.

Maybe if we are really quiet we can sneak by...

You might want to just create a new thread the old fashion way for simplicity sake.

Also side note, your avatar picture constantly freaks me out every time I look at it

Lol I try to change my pic frequently. And I will be starting the new thread so everyone remember to hop over to the next thread.

-Thanks

Ulfric and his Stormcloak rebellion most definitely have strong "nord only" overtones. One can bury one's head, but they are definitely there. Note: That doesn't make him racist, nor do I think he is. It's definitely not the first time we've encountered those overtones (not specific to nords) in an Elder Scrolls game. Boy those Dunmer were exceptionally welcoming weren't they? (sarcasm)

My first Nord character signed on with the Stormcloaks, it was my first character on the game too and mostly to learn the mechanics, where as the majority of my characters there after have been more along the roleplay route.

Take my latest Nord, for example. Outside of Skyrim, he has worked primarily as a mercenary to put food on the table and mead in the belly. He was drawn back to Skyrim, to visit his deathly ill mother one last time. He gets mixed up in the Stormcloak business crossing the border. He bears no hatred for the Empire nearly lopping off his head, they likely thought him to be a rebel also, an easy mistake to make in the situation. He recognizes Talos as a divine, as many Nords and other Imperial Citizens do. The White-Gold concordat did naught to scupper that. He couldn't openly worship sure, but there is more than one way to show one's devotion to a god.

Prior to the Rebellion, it is known that the Empire turned a blind-eye to the worship of Talos in Skyrim. The uprising however, meant that this was no longer possible. The White-Gold concordat and the ban on Talos Worship was the central part of their cause, not the only reason to take up arms, but the main one. I would bet 100 Septims that Thalmor influence in Skyrim increased shortly there after as well. Anyway, back to the Nord. He escapes Helgen with Ralof in the confusion, where it is suggested he should join up with the Stormcloaks.

His mother's place is on the way to Windhelm, so why not make the journey and see what there is to see about it. Arriving at Windhelm, he offers his services to Jarl Ulfric, for cut price no less, only for it be met with refusal. The counter was a test of loyalty as much as skill, one that would see either his death or a pointless accomplishment. My Nord reiterated his initial offer, pointing to already being a proven warrior. At the conclusion of the discussion, it was insinuated that because he would refuse to meet Ulfric and Galmar's recruitment terms thus barring him from the Stormcloaks, he wasn't a true son of Skyrim.

To say that my Nord found that insulting would be an understatement. If he thought he could escape Windhelm alive at that time, he would have gutted Ulfric there and then. Afterall, he observes most Nord traditions and still worships Talos as he has done his whole life. He has no affinity for the Stormcloak rebellion and continue to do as he has done in the past, by serving in the legion.

Obviously that's just my character, but I do believe that he wouldn't be the only Nord in Skyrim that still worships Talos regardless of the White-Gold concordat (that's a given) and is likely insulted by the "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" propaganda spouted by the Stormcloaks.

Everyone use this thread, I forgot to put thread 2 in the title. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1381188-a-debate-a-friend-and-i-had/

it's a little heavy-handed then. it makes the elves look that much more petty to get involved in a nord "social issue," where there's no apparent political advantage for them to do so, aside from the obvious. i think it's far too simple of a conflict to hinge all other events from, simply because it's "evles vs. humans." i'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, that they would want to take advantage of a potential false front/betrayal-the AD manipulating the empire into a civil war, having their enemies destroy each other, that's far more interesting in terms of potential conflict in future events. although maybe you're right, which would only confirm just how simplistic and naive the writing actually is