Did Skyrim have that 'alien' feel?

Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:17 am

@imseeingred:

I'm confused as to what you mean, exactly?

Context, flavour and purpose to what? Most of the real world lacks purpose. If you mean the dungeons, they all hold purpose in why they are there and what they do (except for caves, which, being natural, lack purpose). Dwemer ruins are dwellings, as evidenced by the workbenches, chairs, desks, broken bits of old furniture, gates and much else. A few are also power stations, hence the pipeworks and such. Nordic ruins are often barrows, or ancient tombs, crypts, or old temples (Bleak Falls is an old temple, Dead Man's Respite is a tomb). The fort ruins are actual disused forts, that way because Skyrim until recently had no need of them, hence why the Civil War involves retaking them. Mines are mines.

Many of the random locales have a point. Giant Camps are homes of giants, or at least, literal camps for them to stop at when they're not travelling (they're referred to as nomadic) altars were set up by necromancers, shrines by worshippers etc.

Basically, outside of the loot, what exactly lacks context? I'm not denying what you say may be true, I'm just unsure as to what you refer to.

You're only half right, which makes you all wrong. The landscape, dungeons, Spawn points and item spots are all hand crafted. How those slots are filled out are almost entirely procedural. Even instances of items laying out in the open are procedural and radiant (For example, you can find an Iron sword in a fort, and on another playthrough, the same sword will be an Ebony sword). Skyrim does a lot better work with Procedural stuff, but it's still too much.

So what this creates is a world with a ton of detail, but very little context. Go back to Morrowind, and go through a cave. Each NPC had specific apparel, armor and loot which could impart context to their life, including class, fighting style and success (Successful bandits tend to wear better gear). Likewise, you find similar items strewn about within this area. You're not going to find any Ebony, Daedric or even Dwemer items in the smuggler cave of Adamasartirus (Or whatever it's called) right outside Seyda Neen. But out in the Dagon Fel region, you can find more successful bandits boasting Ebony or orcish armors. This even goes so far as to personalize base weapons for individuals, such as the custom Axes and spears many of the Ashkans and Agulukahns of the Ashlander Tribes use.

This is true, Skyrim introduced "dummy items" so objects in the world can be levelled, but I already said in my post that loot (which includes items lying around, not just in containers) is generic and levelled. Items are indeed randomised, and lacking in context, and that is where the flaw is. What you posted however suggested that the locations themselves were procedural, when they are not. Also, unique weapons do exist and actually many aren't really levelled at all, it's just that, as you say, Skyrim seems to prefer to just drop in a random enchanted weapon without a name, rather than a static one with a name.
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Juan Cerda
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:09 am

I'm confused as to what you mean, exactly?

Context, flavour and purpose to what? Most of the real world lacks purpose. If you mean the dungeons, they all hold purpose in why they are there and what they do (except for caves, which, being natural, lack purpose). Dwemer ruins are dwellings, as evidenced by the workbenches, chairs, desks, broken bits of old furniture, gates and much else. A few are also power stations, hence the pipeworks and such. Nordic ruins are often barrows, or ancient tombs, crypts, or old temples (Bleak Falls is an old temple, Dead Man's Respite is a tomb). The fort ruins are actual disused forts, that way because Skyrim until recently had no need of them, hence why the Civil War involves retaking them. Mines are mines.

Many of the random locales have a point. Giant Camps are homes of giants, or at least, literal camps for them to stop at when they're not travelling (they're referred to as nomadic) altars were set up by necromancers, shrines by worshippers etc.

Basically, outside of the loot, what exactly lacks context? I'm not denying what you say may be true, I'm just unsure as to what you refer to.

I'm specifically referring to areas populated by NPC (Humanoid/sentient) characters. It's necessary to add a much greater level of detail and context to sell the authenticity. I've said several times that "Monsters" and "Animals" Don't need context in the same way, they're beasts.

You're also grossly underestimating the power of "Loot" to impart context to a situation. A group of highwaymen dressed in ragged leather, surround by a few flawed rubies, septims and ragged clothes tells a different story than Ebony/Scaled/Orcish clad rogues with Elven, glass and ebony weapons. Skryim has the possibility, but it lacks consistency. Level 1 bandits can spawn amidst ebony and glass weapons (Which they won't even pick up to use in combat), while the most powerful Volkihar Ancient may cruise around with an Iron Dagger and black robes. You think after 500+ Years, he would have gotten some armor?

When it comes down to it as well, the ubiquitous "Boss chests" Which every dungeon delver looks forward to finding on their trek is another aspect that seems all too convinient. I'd rather the actually "Boss" of the area function as said random loot generator.

I guess it boils down to consistency. It's a subtle thing for sure.
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Cassie Boyle
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am

zindro-

i think the confusion is all my fault as i reread my posts.

i combined a number of different aspects together into a single topic/response and i shouldn't have.

lol, my bad.
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steve brewin
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:56 pm

@imseeingred:

This is true, Skyrim introduced "dummy items" so objects in the world can be levelled, but I already said in my post that loot (which includes items lying around, not just in containers) is generic and levelled. Items are indeed randomised, and lacking in context, and that is where the flaw is. What you posted however suggested that the locations themselves were procedural, when they are not. Also, unique weapons do exist and actually many aren't really levelled at all, it's just that, as you say, Skyrim seems to prefer to just drop in a random enchanted weapon without a name, rather than a static one with a name.

Did you ever play Morrowind? (And pay attention, the subtleties are easy to miss)

Unique item means unique. They may have looked similar, but they had unique enchantments. There was plenty of standard enchanted stuff too. (Iron Shardcleaver, Steel Shardscythe, etc). It was just a bonus to find rare stuff like that.

Skyrim has a few, just off the top of my head is Predetor's Grace. But that's maybe one in a half-dozen game-wide.
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rae.x
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:27 pm

Did you ever play Morrowind? (And pay attention, the subtleties are easy to miss)

Unique item means unique. They may have looked similar, but they had unique enchantments. There was plenty of standard enchanted stuff too. (Iron Shardcleaver, Steel Shardscythe, etc). It was just a bonus to find rare stuff like that.

Skyrim has a few, just off the top of my head is Predetor's Grace. But that's maybe one in a half-dozen game-wide.

Yes actually, it was my first TES game and it's one of the ones I still play.

You're right about unique items and them being lacking in Skyrim. One of the problems though is that it's hard to distinguish between a unique item and a random name assigned to a generic one, as enchantments are only one or two effect now. Morrowind's unique items were often not that uniquely enchanted, just a unique combination (sometimes not even then).

Also, random interesting note: Addamasartus will spawn dwemer loot at levels higher than 11 but only rarely.

Also, for a quantitative comparison;
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unique_Items
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unique_Armor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unique_Weapons

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unique_Weapons
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Wayne Cole
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:00 am

Which makes sense, because it's a Smuggler cave, and Dwemer artifacts, along with various alcohols, magic items and such, are all mentioned with additional game context (Little Advice, Little Secret, etc) as being items popularly smuggled.
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Nick Tyler
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:06 am

Skyrim certainly feels more unique than Oblivion did. After all, that's how Skyrim managed to interest me in TES lore. But it doesn't come anywhere close to the awesomeness that was Morrowind.
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Celestine Stardust
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:14 am

Skyrim certainly feels more unique than Oblivion did. After all, that's how Skyrim managed to interest me in TES lore. But it doesn't come anywhere close to the awesomeness that was Morrowind.

agree with the morrowind part.

but, when i think of oblivion i instantly think of a more high fantasy type art direction.

when i think of skyrim, it's just sort of blah. detailed, for sure. but, there's no distinction. it's just cookie-cutter, for me.
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!beef
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:31 am

Which makes sense, because it's a Smuggler cave, and Dwemer artifacts, along with various alcohols, magic items and such, are all mentioned with additional game context (Little Advice, Little Secret, etc) as being items popularly smuggled.

Exactly. Skyrim's loot is the main problem, I'm not arguing that. Morrowind had "random_[material]" lists and such to put caps on loot the same way Skyrim puts caps on enemy types, why they didn't do this I don't know. By this I mean, in Morrowind, a chest might contain iron at a low level, then steel a bit higher, but go no further. In skyrim it'd go all the way to Daedric. But oddly, enemies are capped, for example bandits are never stronger than level 25 (that's the level the highest type of non-boss bandit is). It is an issue, but thankfully a small one.

It does try to do things right, it just seems to not be able to get the loot tables both believable and interesting. All items that could forseeably be in a ruin should have a chance of being there, but be rarer depending on how little the chance would reasonably be (any ruin could house a daedric longsword, but the chance of any of them doing so should be miniscule)
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Setal Vara
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:20 pm

I wouldn't call it an "alien" feel, no, but I definitely feel they successfully created a very rugged, hostile world that feels dangerous to traverse.
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LADONA
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:57 pm

I definitely feel they successfully created a very rugged, hostile world that feels dangerous to traverse.

Eh...when I'm walking through Skyrim anytime i hear the wolf 'howl' that lets me know a pack of wolves are onto my scent I just kind of roll my eyes, pull out my weapon, and wait for the wolves to show up. 4-6 slashes later I have a few new wolf pelts over my shoulder. Virtually anything dangerous I encounter can be either killed or outrun.

Even Dragons, Skyrim's 'big thing' are really poorly done here. A dragon literally cannot kill you if you don't let it, because they don't have any mobility to their attacks. They either land on the ground and attack you, but they move slow, or they fly up and hover above you while breathing fire. Either way the sprint button quickly takes care of that. And most dragons will leave me alone if I just point myself in one direction and start running - often times they don't even notice me. My biggest concern when I hear a dragon is 'Oh crap, is he going to kill that vendor i like?'
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Joey Avelar
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:29 am

'Oh crap, is he going to kill that vendor i like?'
The main reason why with my newer chars never started the MQ was because in a 200hour save most farms/towns are depopulated by dragons >.<
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Justin Bywater
 
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