Where exactly did I bring up the "no life" thing?

You said: "you probably have no job," and "no real responsibility," i.e. you are assuming something about them and about their life and making a statement insinuating that they have "no life."

fallout NV says hi

and fallout 3

I'm a little concerned over just how loyal some people are to Bethesda.

WE are the consumers. We have every right to criticize and complain about a product.

We shouldn't be saying "Don't criticize because the product is great compared to other things out there and could be much worse."

We SHOULD be saying "Criticize this product where criticism is needed because the product can be made BETTER."

Right?

This is correct.

ES, one of the few series where the fan boys and blind defenders are actually the newbs, and the vet, old guard are the critics.

Logic is often left at the door when signing into the internet.

right. And maybe our time is not here. The genre is still very new, and makers haven't figured out how much advlt content games can make on the market yet. There is room for a more sophisticated Elder Scrolls type game. I don't mean six, though that's obviously about to break loose on the game world. I mean an entire generation of children have been raised on games and have grown and there are not many games that have grown with them. ES were their choice.

I started in my 20's playing an Attari 5200; that's how far this field has come.

If there is a market for better games, hopefully someone will build them. I believe there is.

generalizations like this one are probably one of the reasons you didn't notice any of those baseless complaints that you said you had never seen before.

This is what I don't understand. How does getting a better end product hurt anyone? As I said earlier, apathy and complacency seem to win out for some reason.

Skyrim is a great game though and I say that as someone who loved Morrowind and found myself disappointed with Oblivion.

Yet, somehow, Skyrim seems to capture some of the magic that Morrowind had.

That's not to say it's perfect, far from it, but it's still a great game.

I do have gripes, such as some quests being railroaded (some are, some aren't which makes me think that Beth really need a quest design document that should be followed by all their quest writers) and I'd have loved to have seen more fleshing out of followers and marriage - followers being something that Obsidian really excelled at in NV.

Factions questlines are a little short but that was true in Oblivion too - Bethesda really missed a trick because they could possibly have considered making it mandatory to do more radiant quests between the main guild missions.

Personally, I quite like the perks system - early on especially it forces you to specialise and focus - it also felt more organic to me, rather than picking a class at the start and trying to play to that, I found myself using certain weapons and armour and applying perks accordingly.

As to some of the things removed over the years some I understand, others I'm undecided about. Medium armour/spears - I can see why people would want them but not sure I actually miss them. Chameleon - hmm, I did like it but it could make things almost too easy.

Levitation I do miss but considering how both Skyrim and Oblivion are built it wasn't really feasible. Athletics was also neat in Morrowind but too easy to level by just jumping everywhere lol.

I also think a hardcoe mode like NV would have been great too - Never used it myself but I think it's a great option to have for a lot of people.

Skryim was an improvement on a great many things in my opinion. I do have my gripes, particularly with weapons and the lack of depth in a few questlines, but overall its a pretty involved traditional fantasy style role playing game.

God's sake man, let them put out expansions or DLC before you write an entire game off thats only been out a two months.

Even worse, the people that think the series is somehow "selling out" to casual gamers... chrissake it's like I'm in high school and punk rock is the only music that matters.

Diversify, or atrophy.

Those are your choices, and you can't honestly say you'd play the same game with a different name ad nauseum... because you know damned well you'd be on here screaming about how unoriginal it is. IF this was Daggerfall 10 or Morrowind 50, Bethesda would be exclusively on Zynga or a JRPG by now.

Or they could Ad even more sanbox ellements(more then in Oblivion and morrowind) plus add on the things that made people pick up skyrim.. And many happy little gamer that would never have picked up a pure sandbox Title will buy the next elder scroll game. And go.. Hmm I never tried this before? is this what a sandbox game feels like? OMG why havent I tried a game like this before...

Remeber this is a WAR People, Sandbox vs Theampark its a WAR, and to win it we need to use sneaky tactis, That is what I like to Belive.. I prey each night that I go to sleep that the latest Installement in the Online world (SWTOR) will crash and burn, and Put a final END to dumb down, copy cat [censored] we have been spoon feed for years now.. And in the single player game world I'm very happy that DANA white (UFC president) hates EA as much as me, because they will not be able to make a second game in Their MMA franchise.. Suits never had any Bussnies making video games, they should be made because people love making games not to cash out on avrage joe, Jumping around waving your arms and playing your fake rockgitarr, and APs games for phones, facebook crap etc, are a few of the things that In my mind RUN The risk of destroying the games I like to play permenantly... Is this what you complainers want? that in 5-6 years time the only sandbox feel we will get is to Grow some plants or buy another Horse on Farmvill?? That is were we are heading..
So Bethesda dumb down Skyrim a bit, and they made it more acceseble to non sanbox people.. Its still way more sanboxy then most games released last year or they year before that... If they are smart And I hope they are.. they will add to the light feel of Skyrim, and bring back many of the things you old vets loved (remeber they like making those types of games in their hearts, dont think for a second they dont) So what we hopefully will get is a very deep sanbox game with alot of Stylish skyrim action.. and everyone will like it, and those theamparkers might actually start to apriciate the sanbox... Opening up the market for more Evolution and progress..

the "golden age" for RPG's seem to have died in the 90's to the FPS action game. Dragon age: Origins was a brief look to the glory days but DA2 quickly snuffed that out. XD After that decade All the RPG's I've played only got more and more "streamlined" and "dumbed down" for the lowest common denominator non-RPG fan. You soon had games that would have been action/adventure games label as "hardcoe" RPG's. You hardly ever see Choice and consequence and multiple endings for quests and such. FONV finally came along and tried it's best to add it in with the restrictions given them. (Time, engine and playstyle.)

Yea, those games definitely felt like the world was responding to your choices more, but keep in mind, those games have a definitive end and they don't have guilds and such. I mean, at the end of the day in Fallout you simply never become chapter master of the Brotherhood of Steel and go "Why can't I give any real orders?!"

I have a sister and a friend who are seriously not gamers.....they are the casual crowd.

They both got Skyrim when it came out. They both play Oblivion for a little bit (as I played it)....you know what they comments were:

1. The Questlines are a bit short
2. I miss classes
3. The graphics are so much nicer
4. I got bored


And you know why they got bored? The questline stories weren't interesting enough......all they did was follow an arrrow on the screen. They didn't get confused and actually enjoyed the puzzles....but they got bored cause the game was too simple, not challenging enough (and no I dont mean as in hard/easy to kill stuff).


Bethesda, if you had made a great hardcoe a(as much as an game could be called 'hardcoe' now) you would have still got all the sales that you got. Most of the people I know were buying the game before it came out.

Casaul players dont want simple games all the time, they also want a challenge that they can sink their tetth into.

Saying the Vocal Minority being repressed is hysterical to me.

When people talk about this in reference to politics, they are speaking hopefully.

That said: Can we get away from the black and white: You love or hate Skyrim? That seems to be a fallacy that is getting more and more prevalent as the game continues to progress. If you hate the game... your not a valiant warrior for the old ways, you just don't like the game. Gaming isn't going downhill, it is improving and evolving as it always has. Private Independents are showing companies how to make quality games, because now single mom and pop groups can sit down as programmers and make something that can sell for millions out of their living room. Larger still loyal companies are trying their hardest to break the crappy molds that larger more apathetic companies are setting (I'm looking at EA again). Skyrim showed that a single player platform is still viable as a product. We don't need multiplayer, we just need something that has sufficent depth and appeal that everyone can appreciate it.

Also, if you really think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is 100% dedicated to worshiping the ground Todd Howard walks on, your fooling yourself. I have logged about 90 hours on Skyrim since I bought it on release night. I have a LOT of complaints. I have voiced almost every single one of them. I will find more complaints as I get further in the game. I don't see myself getting sick of this game for a long long time.

And another thing, do you think it's really in Bethesda's best interests to ignore you? Do you really really think, that an entity that it's sole purpose is to make money, would just IGNORE a minority of it's customer base, when it is in it's best interests to appeal to that fan base as much as the new fans? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to make the game EVERYONE wants, not just the majority? 650 Million dollars. If you appeal to 95% of those people, but 5% are unhappy, so you ignore that 5%... Explain on your next title released with a greater budget to the last, why you LOST 32.5 Million Dollars. Otherwise known as: More money than everyone who has posted on this thread makes annually...combined I would bet. Explain that to investors... and why you should then be greenlit for yet MORE money for your next title.

If your in the minority, it doesn't mean your right. It just means most people don't agree with you. Also, if most people don't agree with you, it doesn't make your opinion any less relevant to the people who really matter, because at the end of the day your still a paying customer.

In other words: Stop complaining about how lost your cause is, and complain your little internet addled brains out. Doing so, while unbelievably tedius since you are going to get lumped up with idiots and trolls by people who lack the comprehension and common sense to care, will get the attention the game needs to improve the title.

Also, why the heck are you saying Oblivion was worth a crap? That game was solid fecal matter. Praising it as the great games of a long gone time, would be like saying we should go back to communal roman style Toilets... since there was so many deep conversations that happened while people were taking a dump.

Too bad its the truth. Most of the fan boys and blind defenders only ever played Oblivion, or only Skyrim. And it makes sense. For the same reasons that were posted on the previous page. You cant complain about losing things when you didn't know what was there to start with. The other camp is the fan boys and blind defender that played in such a linear way that they don't care if this or that is gone. The two lesser sub factions are people that simply don't care what they are given, and the smallest minority, people that just like to defend things, regardless of what those actual things are.

I never said I didn't notice baseless comments, just that they aren't in every critical post like the person I quoted suggested.

This is one of the complaints I can never wrap my head around, no offense to you. People always complain about acrobatics and athletics being easy to level... "You just jump around to raise acrobatics, it's too easy."

If I wanted to be able to jump higher in real life, do you know what I would do? I would jump a lot! If I wanted to be able to run faster, I'd run more!

I don't see how leveling those skills in such a manner is unrealistic/ridiculous at all.

And then we have the problem of removed depth, because now everyone in Skyrim has the same jump height and running speed (well, not really, it's determined by race). How can I roleplay a ninja or a speedy courier or an acrobatic thief now?

However I can't give out contracts to fellow Brotherhood characters after I become the Listener. I can't build the Brotherhood up by recruiting members either.

I think Bethesda would be a fool to ignore everyone because they made a bucket on profit, mostly on preorders and people who bought the game too early to see player reviews that mention the numberous issues. I for one will not be preordering TES VI in 6 years time (especially seen as my special pre order gift was given out to anyone who bought it anyway), I will wait to see if any of the shortcomings have been addressed, whethere quests in general take you on a journey, guild ones to earn the place given and how many bugs that exist in this game have made it though to that one, including ones that have been fixed or shouldn't have existed by a check feature already in the game.
If anything they need to go by VI's sales to measure how well skyrim did, if it's less then this or slower on the uptake then it shows the damaged image to the game and company. DA 2 did very well of DA:O back but I think we all can recognise DA 3 sales will suffer for it, or for a better glimpse, take Fable, one done alright slow start mainly, 2 had a much better start but the image was damage and III's sales where lower for it, The journey and IV will likely plummet even more if they manage to get to IV.

Well you could argue that's what they did when they made FO3.....

I'm one of the old guard and really neither but if I HAD to pick with Skyrim I'd go with the [censored]. All the TES games I've loved have been different but I don't find any inferior to the others allowing for relative tech. Each has its different strengths and weaknesses. Isunk countless hours into both Morrowind and Oblivion and will also into Skyrim. I never could get into Daggerfall though. If my wife hadn't given me Redguard one Christmas, I probably would not be here today.

There's always exceptions. I cant accept less than. So the later ES games have been a joke compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall.

You can argue that. I wouldn't because I disagree with you.

If we are going to compare FO3 to Oblivion... the leveling system in fallout was much better than Oblivion. The Perks system gave appropriate bonuses to your character without being overly complicated. The characters in fallout where much more memorable than Oblivion (3-Dog, Your Dad, the overseer of the vault trapped in Leave-it-to-beaver-vision, President Malcolm McDowell... the list continues), the landscapes were much the same but they actually made samey environments interesting, weapon variation, voice acting, immersion... They improved from the prior title in every single way IMO.

But, most of that is moot, because Comparing Oblivion to FO3 isn't prudent since they are effectively different series. I would say FO3 is the morrowind for FO:NV's Oblivion. But, being totally different games with totally settings makes cross comparisions a bit difficult. What is the equivalent of Magic for fallout, that was nerfed? Conversation trees were a bit better in Fallout... but what does that say, if they improved Conversation trees for another series, but nuked them in the TES series when they made Skyrim?

Wasn't without flaws, but I don't see how they didn't listen to the people during the development of Oblivion... yet they made a better game.

At the end of the day it's all about money. You can bet that the marketing guys to the drawing board went something like "let's see, we can stay true to the series and earn 5, or make the game more casual and earn 7. Beth, what should we do?". The answer is pretty obvious.

If we're doomed to be the minority, so be it. I enjoy the game as it is, think it's still great despite its obvious flaws and can't wait for the CK to mod the hell out of it. I suggest you keep your mind at ease, it's a lost cause anyway.