I agree with you OP, I too enjoyed roaming the lands of Oblivion, and Morrowind for countless hours. I think it's my fault though for having to high of expectations for Skyrim, and also reading to much info about it before it was released.

Commandant Oreo,
I'm curious why you find variation in Fallout- and do not mean that negatively at all. I like Fallout- I even liked the buggy licensed New Vegas. But I can't play them as much as I could Oblivion.

part of it is the joy in Oblivion of being what you wanted to be. I did a lot of boulder hopping listening to music made when its composer had reason to value life anew. There was a joy there. But I try not to confuse that personal bit with Oblivion with more objective game science. Oblivion allowed you to develope different characters, and the leveling system required you to pay attention if you wanted certain features. The growth of a character into a complete success is a lot of fun. In Fallout, it's the same character- and that means I'm there to watch bad guys do their stuff and shoot them. I agree it's infinite- the way you can dispatch badguys, but without the character development alongside it tires for me.

More character developement in Fallout would make it outstanding- but would that lose some of it's audience?

Bethesda is so big now they could make a game they wanted to- and still sell. They should do that. They should try something ambitious. They should do something that would leave the Game market gasping. The market is overdue for it's Sgt Peppers moment. They are the ones to do that.

Because, as Ive stated before, its still better than 99% of other games out there, just not on par with other games in the series. It's strange that a mod, of all people would post something like "why are you here then?", to constructive criticism, or observations.

I can never quite understand these kinds of statements. what`s the point of it?
Is it a wave the white flag surrender statement?

If it`s a plea to change things, then make the plea. Or don`t. But don`t make a post to surrender. things always change. History repeats itself. One day people will get tired of easy and dumbed down and stop buying, then we`ll get back to more cerebral games.

Skyrim is only as deep as the person playing it.

Blade watcher;

I don't know what kind of statements you are surprised by. The forum is about the only way I can even hope to let Bethesda know I'm disapointed with Skyrim. There isn't much hope at that. There's a lot of bashing going on, and a lot of emotion. Do ideas emerge from above the din, the fray? When I write 'statements like that' I hope to find out if I'm alone, or how many might agree with me to some extent. If there's a 'white flag' involved, it may be me not getting my hopes up with future Bethesda games. But I loved Bethesda- and still do. I hope they do find greatness.

During the years there was no more elder scrolls, I wrote Bethesda once a year, and urged them to do another. That's not white flag fatalism, then is it? My boys wanted another too.

grog

I'm just gonna say I disagree.

I think you have it backwards. Discounting FO3 since to me it had the same problem as OB did the Master of all single character. I had one character in Oblivion, and he was master of all skills leader of all guilds and so forth. Most if not all high level character where the exact same as him across many different gamers I bet. Not so in Fallout NV or the original fallouts. You had to made hard choices in what perks to take and what skills to manage. You could never master them all. Hence your characters in Fallout where generally more unique.

As for replayabliity, hell in NV you had 4 different endings, and most if not all the quest had multiple ending or ways of doing things. TES is the only one that has the linear quest completion options thing goign for it.

This is excessively dramatic. The opinions of forum posters of either persuasion have never mattered to Bethesda (Bethesda being the marketing department and executives - not the developers). They pay far to much money for the services of clueless focus groups to pay any attention to pissed off nerds on some forum. Oh well, perhaps we can place our faith in DLC's fixing some of the issues we all have with this game.

I'm a big believer that BGS is doing what they want. Look at the pattern from Daggerfall to Skyrim. Each is a step further from RPG and a step closer to FPS/action-adventure. They do a poorly implemented game mechanic in one game, and then throw the entire feature out in the next game (despite having examples of mods that fix that mechanic beyond belief). Aside from the RPG/FPS argument, each game strips out story, character, and non-visual content further, while putting even more effort into insane UIs, high tech 3D maps, etc.

My theory is that the devs (writers, designers, etc.) who are interested in story, RPG mechanics, and deeper content in general leave the company with each release. Also, there's a sort of a natural evolution at play as they make each game more about exploring an open world, and less about taking part in that world.

BGS came from RPG roots, yet they continue to move away from those with each release. BGS had an example of a story-centric RPG made with their own engine in FONV, and they completely ignored it and continued on their way. It's hard for me to interpret that as anything other than conscious and deliberate.

I realized during one of Todd's Skyrim marketing spiels that BGS isn't about RPGs anymore. That epiphany made me a lot happier with Skyrim, because I came in hoping for a great action-adventure, and they delivered. I'd absolutely love it if they'd focus more on story and mechanics, but I don't think that's a possibility with the current crew. There would have to be huge turnover at the top for that to happen.

Anadius,
I see where you're coming from with Oblivion. The truth though, is that before you became master of everything, you had mastered a few things- specialized. ( or perhaps you did not. I always did. If at first I was an archer then I was an archer; later I became a mage. Etc etc) To become a master of everything you had to stick to the game and play it beyond where many would quit. I don't think the makers expected 'everyone' to do everything. It's a different set up than the Fallout games. IN fallout, the main quest is finished, you're master of fighting, and visit a few DLC's before quiting. You're done- you visit a few more places. In Oblivion you acheived success with your picks for specialization and completed the main quest. If you stuck around, you speicialized in other things. You were developing your character. That made it fun. And just like both Fallouts, you could always tackle the bad things and bad guys in new ways, (new to you, anyway)

I liked that Oblivion gave it all to you. Fallout gave it to you all, or nearly so. It took many months before I would play the Dark Brotherhood or thieves guild. I was raising children, gaming was a new popular art, and I did not trust games.

NV endings are not enough to keep me playing nv. RPG games require character developement. But I liked NV very much.

thank you for talking,

grog

See I still don't really understand you, Fallout had character development, and it had story and quest C&C because of that character development. Grinding your character up to master of everything is the opposite of character development. In fallout NV you could complete the MQ without firing a shot and with pure speech. Have you tried that? Could you do that in OB or Skyrim? I think not. You had much much more options to go in FONV then you could ever do in TES.

Your post is a bit silly. It is correct to say there is more to like than to dislike.
But silence isn t approval, and any game maker know to pay attention to dissatisfaction or complaint
Because praise... well ... praise will not help them sell more copies by beating their competitors to the punch

you see, bethesda fight isnt with criticism, it s with other game makers
and staying on top is not easy

I think the complaining stopped because all was said and we all believe bethesda listened


Since Oblivion don t have perks... there is a single build .... GOD


Looking at all the features, I think they had a long hard look at what the modders did for morrowind.
Why ... Because that game endured way past its expiration date, and that is verry rare

active bookshelves
weapons plaques
display cases
maniquins

the original were all the work of a few verry talented and verry famoous morrowind modders
the one in skyrim even share the same bug
(the maniquins sometime moving, hillarious !)

the whole obsesion for wildlife was the work of a good friend of mine, Caith, who created a lot of sea life affter doing her famous farmlife mod
Latter on, Tamriel Rebuilt, pretty much all teams did more expensive cities surrounded by farmland

Obliously they also paid attention to the competition, and to their own work
mercenaries, traps and the likes

the new dungeons and the crazy darkreach are 100% theirs, thought I think they may have had inspiration from ultima underworld
I mean the whole game is full of easter eggs and reference to other games, mavies, and other things

All I can say is ... nothing ... in life, not just game
can be accomplished without listening

they did a good job at that, I hope they lll keep listening

I also think the workshop is a good thing. it may encourage peoples to go back to real modding,
Oblivion seemed to have a *porm* problem, the worshop may solve that,
by giving more visibility to serious mods

I hope that bethesda will clarify if they do plan provincial expansion
because back in the morrowind era,
the bloodmoon expansion ended up conflicting with many big mods
like blacklight of tamriel rebuilt, and wizard island

they could just say ... we may be coming ... stick to paralel universes....
at least modders will know and not waste their time

I know a lot of fan are hopping those arches that go to various provinces are for real, and that the province xpacks are not just speculation

myself I found the cyrodil arch recently, near falkreath, and it does look like it could lead to cyrodil.
you pass the arch, you keep going through a really neat road. and suddenly you are told
** you cannot go that way**
I could almost smell a smooth transition to a loading screen, just like with the caves

WHAT SHOULD THEY FIX

they should consider solving the leveling problem by getting rid of levels
the level are the one feature many said should be cut
It just confuse noobs that are used to gaining levels through slaughter
and it is also the primary cause of the deficience of leveled list.
with level gone, they ll index by best offensive value

because if they want 8 provinces .... you need to balance all that, and give reasons to keep adventuring
improve the core mechanics.

Right, the reason that it was that way is because it followed the tradition of older RPG's combat but forced into a first person action perspective. Combat in Morrowind is simply primitive and trapped in the conventions set by pen and paper games. I love Skyrim and appreciate that Bethesda tried (and for the most part succeeded) to create a game that accomplishes the original intent of the old pen and paper RPG's without getting trapped in the mechanics and rules that predate personal computers.

No Morrowind's problem is it didn't properly show you what was going on. If it merely had a swing and miss animation it would have been all good. So those that where "uninitiated" to the standard RPG practice of stat driven ability got all confused.

Alot better then the get within range and auto hit mechanics we have now for melee.

Yes the critical posts are more if you include trolling and shenanigans.

And people get on the defensive when they see them - natural since they want to defend something they like. Thing is people tend to defend against every kind of post whether it's constructive or not. People don't know how to separate them apparently or the matter is completely subjective.

When one says that the "series has been watered/dumped down" and also makes a few points about what he is speaking of, even if his post is not 10 paragraphs long, he is actually being quite specific. Yes, it may be a slightly crude way of him saying his opinion (are there any less crude synonyms?), but does it matter as long as he voices something specific?

And aren't these specific concerns among the things which should be voiced in this forum? Besides feedback is being heard by companies if voiced by many and Bethesda is no exception. It may come to be that when enough complain about lack of x features, the next game focuses more on these features.

Nothing is perfect and striving for perfection even if that is giving your 2 cents as feedback about the game, is a good thing. And yes the ways people view the perfect TES game or "x features" are different, so the voice of the majority will count. But indirectly claiming the game is perfect and defending it is a different thing - and that's what many do, unfortunately.

Beth's objective is to sell games, which they do amazingly well. To be whining about how things have changed from Oblivion to Skyrim is mind boggling given the treatment it got when it came out. FO 3 was far more positively received and so naturally Beth built on that when they designed TES V.

So they got rid of acrobatics and chameleon? who cares, I never used them anyway. Its like when they got rid of levitation in Oblivion, everybody whined at first, but then realised that with fast travel it wasn't needed any more.Muffle works nearly as well and is a lot more engaging than chameleon was.

What is the only thing I miss from Morrowind? the voice actor for the dunmer and silt striders. What do I miss from Oblivion, nothing really, everything that matters has come across into Skyrim.

I guess I don't really understand why it holds less value for you overall.

I mean, mostly what I hear is either people complaining about specifics ...loss of spell crafting, loss of many stats etc. These make sense taken in isolation as complaints, i'm just not sure I buy that they are the backbone of TES games, which appears to be the prevailing argument from people who are disappointed with the game. I have to qualify that by saying though, seriously..complaining about 400 hours vs. more for a game is ridiculous, you more than got your moneys worth already. I just don't see how it can really be that bad when you have played that much of it. Particularly if it's as repetitive as you guys say, I would think you would have figured that out LONG before 400 hours.

Honestly it sounds like you are just burnt on it, I've had this happen with every TES game, it's not because they are bad, but they ARE very formulaic..and in that regard, I will say Skyrim is the most formulaic of the lot. You reach a point where they just get annoying, and it's time to leave them alone for a few months, then you go back and have a blast replaying them.

The difference is, Skyrim's formula is better overall IMO than Morrowind or Oblivion (minus a few gripes I have), so the repetitiveness is still there, but the pattern itself is more enjoyable.

Personally, I don't see why there has to be an 'all or nothing' attitude about it: that you either love Skyrim, or you hate it. Because I certainly don't hate it. Do I have my complaints? Verily, I do. That doesn't mean I don't play the living crap out of this game. I love it, more than Oblivion, and almost as much as Morrowind (though I'm waiting to see if GOTY+mods makes it the best of the series). And I don't like to make the casual vs. hardcoe gamer argument here, because most of the truly casual gamers I know wouldn't be interested in TES. It requires too much of a time/effort investment from them.

The fact of the matter is that certain games in the series did certain things better. Skyrim improved on a lot of things from Oblivion (which improved on things from Morrowind); I noticed and appreciated those while playing. I also noticed things were missing that I really wish had been left in. Most people who have gripes with Skyrim's content are coming from a background in the series, and are worried about a decline in the series over time. Rarely have I seen someone take specific complaints and then conclude that the entire game is crap. What they're alarmed about is the ES series losing its distinct flavor over time. And while there are some incredibly specific sore points out there, in the end they can all be summed up in one word: choice. What TES comes down to, in the end, is player choice, and we don't want to see it stripped away. It's sort of become my mantra here on the forums, but I'll say it again: more choice is always better in an Elder Scrolls game. To quote Luke McKinney's recent Cracked article (slightly out of context):"The Elder Scrolls series has always understood that the games are toys, and if a kid enjoys breaking it then, hey, their toy. The series is famous for ludicrously unbalanced builds, with low-level characters more invisible than a Romulan warbird's air supply and even more likely to kill innocent people." This is what TES is known for: massive worlds and the ability to do whatever the hell you want in them, however the hell you want to do it. Take those things away and you have a different beast. That's what we crotchety old TES fans fear.

To that end, if people come to the forums to tell Beth what they think was done correctly or not, I fail to see how that's a bad thing. That's why they're here, and that's how the devs know what needs changing, and what to keep in the next installment. I'm pretty sure if people hadn't whined and moaned about trying to sift through their journals to find a quest in Morrowind, it would have never been fixed in the GOTY edition. I appreciate the games Beth makes. This is far and away my favorite series. But if I think something could be tweaked to make it even better than it already is, well, that's why we have the forums. Now if only we could have a discourse without flame wars--but then that's normal fare in any forum, I guess.

Fixes I'd like to see (other than the obvious glitches and performance issues): spellmaking, the return of many spells, longer questlines, a better pcUI, a better journal. Anything else, I'd just get mods for, but I'd like Beth to know that these things would have been better in the vanilla game, and that I hope to see them in the next installment (or surprise me with them in GOTY! ).

This sort of attitude is part of the problem - 'I never used it therefore it doesn't matter and everyone else is just whining'. I NEVER used spell making and NEVER focused on acrobatics, yet I completely agree with the people who feel that its taken something away from the game, not because it personally affects me, but because its another way to play the game that's been taken away from the people that do want to use it (spell making for one, was a very useful thing that allowed people to create very versatile mages).

I fail to see the logic of 'levitation was made redundant by fast travel'. I don't think many people would agree that fast travel is cooler than levitation. Regardless, levitation was most likely removed because of the closed cities in Oblivion, not because of fast travel. Even if levitation was going to be cut anyway, I doubt that it had anything to do with fast travel (if it was, wow, that would be a dumbing down field day).

I really find it hard to believe how people can truly be in favor of excluding content and choices from the game by saying they were unnecessary or that they didn't personally use them.... If they don't just mindlessly defend their new game without having known anything better -even in certain aspects- what other explanation would there be for this?

It's not that IMO...
It's more that I feel like most of the loudest complainers seem to think that more stuff=better, but don't have a very nuanced view on it.

I'll go against the mantra listed earlier a bit and say that I think more is not always better. There were some removals that bugged me too, speedy warriors were a big part of my playstyle before Skyrim. However, there is something to be said for Bethesda being able to make design decisions without being constantly hamstrung by needing to keep every feature that some people like. In fact, i'd argue it's inevitable that some features will go the way of the Dodo, there were plenty of aspects of Morrowind and Oblivion that were totally ridiculous, and it's good they are gone.

There are other issues of course, and there are things they should't have removed of course.

It's funny though, the same people I see constantly )(*&^ing about choice are also the people who are constantly )(*&ing about certain skills being overpowered, the game being broken due to these overpowered skills etc...Yet in the next sentence, they ask for something like levitation back so the have more "choice", you'd think the contradiction here would be easier to pick up on!

I didn't read the whole OP, but I think I get the point of what he was trying to say.

My response is:

I agree that the positive responses far outweigh the negative responses. That said, I don't think that says that Bethesda wouldn't make changes and improvements going forward.

I don't agree with every choice that Todd Howard and company have made for this series, but by and large I have faith in them to steer the series in the right direction.

On the larger picture, I do think that Oblivion was a step back from Morrowind. However, I do believe it improved greatly in many areas over Morrowind.

I also see what Skyrim did, and I believe that Todd Howard and company saw the mistakes they did make in Oblivion, and corrected them. I think they capitalized on what Oblivion did right, and went further with it, and corrected most of the things it did wrong, and improved them. Overall, I believe that Skyrim is the best overall experience of the series (not including Arena and Daggerfall - I don't have enough experience with them to offer judgment on them). I believe it's a nice blend of what Morrowind and Oblivion both do right, and a removal of many of the things that both do wrong.

Is it perfect? No. But I think it's the closest to perfect the series has been to this point.

And I have faith going forward that Todd Howard and company will evaluate the mistakes they made with this game, and improve upon what they did right and correct what they did wrong.

I have no reason to think otherwise, that has been their M.O. during my time with the series.

It's not that we think that excluding content and choices is better. For me its

1.) I believe that Skyrim offers us more content and choices than we ever had before. I believe Skyrim to be deeper and more complex than Morrowind, while removing the tedium of that game.

2.) I don't believe that the mistakes that Skyrim did make are anywhere near as significant as they are made out to be. The UI is not the horrid mess that people make it out to be, it's a very user friendly interface that allows for quick and easy access to whatever you need. I don't believe that quests are dumbed down, and I believe that the quests that we do have offer more choice and complexity than ever before. I don't even think these things are mistakes, let alone anything significant to flood the forums and complain about. And while losing Spellmaking might be a legitimate loss of "choice" and "content", I don't think Spellmaking is anywhere near significant enough of a feature to cause such ruckus over.

Don't be surprised by that. The real reason most people complain about them is that they don't actually get to enjoy them because they are too easily raised. That is a different notion of balance than what most people think when they listen the world "balance" and it's a valid complain. At this case there is no effort/reward in them which is like the game giving you "god powers" making the other half of its content obsolete and giving you the mundane task of restraining it.



Ofc it comes down to what you consider tedious - which may differ in others' opinions. Some may see extra rp in tedium. Some may see complexity and a chance to think for themselves. Some may see more flexibility. On the other hand some may see unnecessary steps to an end which could be achieved more simply or they are just content with the game's well designed world and don't need something more.

A good example in this, out of many, is the compass which shows the exact objective and every nearby location when you are traveling. Some may consider this relaxing, or convenient, while for some others their gaming experience is partly ruined and a chance to rp a little exploring is lost. And even in the case they are pc players and get rid of it with mods, since the game is built around it, the npcs most times don't even give you any directions or information for the location they want you to go, making it impossible to find the (usually radiant) location.