OK. Now explain the existence of Jerry Bruckheimer and friends... But I agree with both your post and the OP, in general, how about that?

I don't think your take factors in everything. For one thing, I think making "good" or "deep" shows is much harder than junk, and it's impossible to quantify, thus not factoring into the decisions of suits. The suits, for the sake of our argument, are evil, soulless, marketing androids--or jolly old elves--who like to tabulate things and measure success in terms of dollars per unit of cost. Deep isn't part of the spreadsheet calculations, but return on investment--especially in the short term--is. Suits have a lot of decision-making power because they are usually paying the upfront costs. And they don't like risk, which approximately means, something they don't understand (usually everything related to the media in the question). And spreadsheets are the silver crosses to the vampires of risk.

If gamers were more interested in story-line, interesting character idiosyncracies and interesting in-game moral dilemnas, Troika and Black Isle would still be in existence.

Someone mentioned Jersey Shore earlier... Skyrim is the Jersey Shore of RPGs. Popular to millions of gamers.

I can't blame Bethesda for being in the business to make money, that comes first. So considering success of Skyrim, don't expect anything to change because this formula makes money.

Yes, I'm actually in the process of playing through Morrowind and it's all that amazing. It's good, and it's fun however it isn't the pinnacle of the TES series as many believe. I've eventually found out how to game the system which provides no challenge anymore, and the world becomes very stagnant over time. There are a ton of annoying features that add frustration to the game and there is a ton of fat that doesn't need to be there.





LOL I guess Morrowind would be Lost or something. I actually love Jersey Shore and I can tell you this, Saints Row 3 is like the Jersey Shore more than Skyrim is.

The stuff those guys get into aren't exactly shining examples of artistic depth, but they are entertaining for what they are. Things like that are fine so long as they don't try to hide what they are and do what they do as best they can.

The problem comes when they do try to hide what they are and they don't do what they do as best they can (These are typically referred to as taking themselves way too seriously or leaving much to ask for). Transformers 2 is an example of this, and with the way ES is progressing the latter ES games are turning into fair examples of it here in the video game world. Brink especially is an example of a game that doesn't hide the kind of game it is, but didn't do what it does as best it could. So much more could have been done with that game.

. And they don't like risk, which approximately means, something they don't understand (usually everything related to the media in the question). And spreadsheets are the silver crosses to the vampires of risk.

Like I said, if you do it right you can create a completely "risky" game and mask that part entirely to most. Good marketing is good marketing afterall. Those that will be turned off regardless (or will look into the game and then be turned off) are not the people that need to be catered to. They're not the audience being sold on the game, and they shouldn't have any relevance. If your marketing is good and it still can't grab those people, then they aren't worth obsessing over.

That at least is what i learned back in high school when we had to do that "create a product and get it to "sell"" project in Economics. Those that wasted time trying to appeal to absolutely everyone ended up failing compared to us where we focused in on a specific audience while broadening that audience as wide as possible, but while still maintaining that initial audience. We ended up selling more of our product compared to the group that had a similar product (and really it was essentially the same product) because of how we marketed it and what we focused on.

If that can't be applied to games then the industry is just screwed anyway.

The only learning curve I had with the previous ones was understanding how to pick my skills so I could control my leveling speed. (I built a computer for Morrowind, that was the first time I started looking at forums for games! Must be ten years ago, jeebus...) For all of them I thought out my characters beforehand in terms of the mechanics of the playstyle. I don't think it is worth arguing very much... To me a complex character system is NWN2. You can't plan it properly without using an online tool because there is more than you can keep in your head at once.

I've played over a thousand hours of Morrowind, as it was my first TES game. I loved it. Spell creation was in Oblivion. NPCs virtually had no disposition because it meant nothing anyways, it had no effect in game results/choices. Journals were long because THE ENTIRE GAME WAS A JOURNAL. You didnt have to listen carefully in MW because it was ALL recorded in your journal. Every single direction and name was jotted down for you. How more simple can you get. There was fast travel, just not as convienient as it is in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Like I said, more spells and skills doesnt really make the game THAT more complex relatively speaking. You are reaching to find something about Skyrim to complain about because its not filling in your nostalgic void, IMO.

I tend to agree. This trend isn't limited to gaming either. It's prevalent in TV and movies as well. If nothing else, your assertion is evidenced by the explosion of indie rpg development in recent years - catoring to the niche players who still crave deep, compliated, and thoroughly challenging RPGs.

All stuff I don't like was clearly made to cater to people dumber than me. That kind of self-delusion got me through high school and it's gonna get me through this.

I can agree with both points of view here. I have a rapidly growing distaste for the simplification (or dumbing down) of Skyrim and rest assured, it is most certainly so as compared to its predecessors. Though I have a huge love for Skyrim, and all the ES, I find myself more and more disappointed the longer I play. Yes it is visually stunning, the perk system is awesome, forging your own armor and weapons: incredibly fulfilling, the combat is finally up to standards, physics are improved and a myriad of other small things have brought this game to a modern audience.

But it also falls short in so many other ways that it really shouldn't have. Others have listed these, but ultimately what it comes down to is the RPG of the year isn't much of an RPG anymore. There is no specialization, no penalties for choices made, no need to make use of several of the new improvements at all. I'll repeat what many other's feel: it sacrificed customization, the principle of all RPGs, for ease of play and I for one, think Bethesda has it's priorities confused.

I love this series, I love these games. Yes, Bethesda, I will buy your next ES game, even if it is duller than this one. But don't make the mistake of getting lazy because of that. My satisfaction drops dangerously every time. In regards to longevity as a company, can you really afford to lose a customer base in lieu of some extra man-hours down at the studio to take the time to flesh out your product?

I like NWNs. Creating builds was immensely fun.

In Skyrim any gamer can progress.

(It was a twist on the quote...)

In a sense, Troika and BIS are still in existence, they are called Obsidian. Troika was formed from the top three guys that left BIS in 98 to form Troika. BIS went under and then went on to become Obsidian.

In all honesty though, there is not a TES game, except maybe for Daggerfall (never played Arena), that holds a candle against games like PS:T, Fallout 1 & 2, TOEE, Arcanum: oSaMO or Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines for role playing. Those were the days and I don't see why we cannot have great immersion in graphics along with deep player agency. Well, one very recent game did this, except I cannot stand not being able to choose a race or gender and customize my character, TW2.

I finally watched the “Making of Skyrim” DVD that came with my collectors edition last night for the first time. I actually learned a lot of things I didn’t know. Todd actually mentioned some things changing although he didn’t elaborate on what they were, but he and another guy said some things were changed or this was done or that was not done only after much agonizing and not a little gnashing of teeth. The overall gist of what I took from it was that the bar that they have set for themselves is so high that I believe there is no way they can make everybody happy. Basically, Skyrim sets out to try to be the best swordfighting game, the best magic game, the best alchemy game, the best role playing game, the best smithing game, the best exploration game, all in an open world the devs have no clue how anyone is going to play it, all in a stunning gameworld that they hope takes your breath around every turn. Todd basically said the aspiration of achieving this monumental task is terrifying. I actually give them a LOT of credit for pulling off this game as well as they did. Does it have shortcomings? Sure, but it’s a massive game and is a ton of fun to play. As much time as I’ve already played Skyrim, I feel like I’ve more than got my money’s worth many times over. And I haven’t even started modding yet. We’re just scratching the surface.

I personally think you people (I’ll refrain form using the words I really want to say) that call Beth lazy and cheep should be ashamed of yourself. Why don’t you put yourself in the shoes of one of the level designers or artists that put nearly 4 years of their blood and tears into this game ...FOR YOU. If you were sitting at a bar and one of them sat down beside you would you honestly call them lazy to their face? I hardly think so. But it’s easy to put someone down on a forum. Think how that must make them feel. It’s no wonder many don’t look around in here and I can’t blame them. These people take a lot of pride in what they do. Are they perfect? Certainly not, but neither are you.

The incredible amount of work that went into this game is mind boggling. How anyone with even half a brain could call them lazy is beyond my ability to comprehend. Just download the CK and start making a quest the size of even the medium or small quests that’s fully scripted and voice acted and you’ll quickly see it ain’t as easy as you believe it is. Lazy? Gimme a freaking break....

I do not have a "nostalgic void" for Morrowind. I played Oblivion first, then Morrowind. I prefer Oblivion to Morrowind and Skyrim to both. That doesn't mean that Skyrim cannot be improved.

Not all of what NPC's said in Morrowind made it into your journal. I only have maybe a couple of hundred hours into Morrowind and I have found several instances where I had to go back to the NPC and talk with them again because the important bit of information was not in my quest journal.

How can you say that disposition had no effect in Morrowind? If you lower the disposition of a mage teleporter below 20 they won't teleport you anymore. If you raise the disposition of a bandit enough they won't attack you anymore and you can live in their cave. How is that not an effect on game results or choices?

Fixed

This is where I stand. I don't believe Skyrim is perfect in anyway. I'd like to see some ideas in Skyrim fleshed out more, however I also understand how difficult it is to make a big budget game.

simplification for the sake of a larger audience might be here to stay as a business decision.

However, the counterpart decision is that I don't have to pay for their decisions. It's probable that I will get whatever they put out next. But it won't be at full price. THAT title is going to be responsible for determining whether the one after is something I buy, or is something that sits on my wishlists for 5 years before it goes on sale when I'm feeling jaded.

It's not a threat, an ultimatum, or anything like that. It's just a statement that says "you accept it. My wallet isn't going to sit back and just take it."

Yes, I would actually. I wouldn't specifically say that that person was lazy, but I would tell them directly that everything they were a part of could have been done better. (except for graphics and dragons. Those two things I will gladly say that Beth has gone wonderfully. (aside from how water works, but I don't mind that so much)) I hold myself to those kinds of standards, so I'll willingly hold anyone else to those standards as well.

How anyone with even half a brain could call them lazy is beyond my ability to comprehend. Just download the CK and start making a quest the size of even the medium or small quests that’s fully scripted and voice acted and you’ll quickly see it ain’t as easy as you believe it is. lazy. Gimme a freaking break....

I can tell you that the only thing stopping me from overhauling this game entirely is my relative skill compared to them, and even then I plan on changing that now that I have the time to dedicate to modding. I know for a fact that I could do it because I've taken on similarly large projects mostly by myself and still managed to produce the ideal result.

And I don't even need to mention that there ARE specific instances where laziness was clearly an issue. Clipping is still a large problem in the game (and they say they went to lengths to avoid it.LOL) and its present even outside of places where clipping can be acceptable. That hair clips through certain helmets, daggers clip into armor, some shields clip into the body, etc etc are still present in the game is just bad.

You can "game" any TES game, but yeah, I hear you. My Morrowind mage went from incredibly weak to incredibly powerful (and rich) in short order once my Restoration skill got high enough to fortify Alchemy into the stratosphere.

I never said Morrowind was better than Skyrim, just more complex. I enjoy Skyrim more than Oblivion and I enjoy Oblivion more than Morrowind.

But I do think that Skyrim could be improved by bringing back some of the complexity of Morrowind. Such as skill requirements for advancing in the guilds, disposition modifiers for NPS's, more detailed instructions from the game world so players who choose not to activate quest markers can learn enough from the game world to complete the quest, and dare I say it, spell creation.

This. The only reason I bought the Collector's Edition myself is because I know that Beth could still create a worthy TES game if it actually tried.

Why?! Why can't we have RPGs like those anymore?

Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines were all so amazingly epic!

Not enough people bought those titles when they came out?

Well, that's probably true. Game companies see this and they think, "Ack... No, we're not going to make money if we go down that route". So you get games Call of Duty crowd games.

I have never played any Bethesda game, or any RPG style game really. I'd have to say the simplification of the game that people here say has happened was literally the reason I bought the game. I've never even thought of it as an RPG, more like an action/adventure game.


For those saying they think the simplification was done to reach a larger audience, that statement would be completely true for myself.


I can understand why more dedicated fans of TES would not be happy with this though.

Personally I dont see that it's been dumbed down. I like the changes to the levelling system...and I find the game and its world rich in detail and entertainment. I think many of you have unreasonable expectations.
Skyrim is a huge improvement over Oblivion. No complaints here with the game I paid to play.
I can also see loads of scope for improvement and expansion of the vanilla game by the modding community.
Years of fun in this one.