I have accepted the simplification of the series. : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:50 pm

This is where I stand. I don't believe Skyrim is perfect in anyway. I'd like to see some ideas in Skyrim fleshed out more, however I also understand how difficult it is to make a big budget game.

Ditto. I love Skyrim. Much prefer it to Morrowind or Oblivion (which I also love). I'd just like to see Skyrim become even better.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:31 pm

I have never played any Bethesda game, or any RPG style game really. I'd have to say the simplification of the game that people here say has happened was literally the reason I bought the game. I've never even thought of it as an RPG, more like an action/adventure game.

For those saying they think the simplification was done to reach a larger audience, that statement would be completely true for myself.

I can understand why more dedicated fans of TES would not be happy with this though. (<--- my emphasis)

You just said you never played any other TES game before or even an RPG, yet you cannot understand why some are unhappy with Skyrim. KInd of an odd statement to make form one who has zero experience with RPGs :blink:

Imagine if I stated that the same thing along the same lines, regarding a shooter series that went totally against it predecessors.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:08 am

Yes, I would actually. I wouldn't specifically say that that person was lazy, but I would tell them directly that everything they were a part of could have been done better. (except for graphics and dragons. Those two things I will gladly say that Beth has gone wonderfully. (aside from how water works, but I don't mind that so much)) I hold myself to those kinds of standards, so I'll willingly hold anyone else to those standards as well.

I guess I'm a "glass half full" kinda guy when it comes to this. As I already conceeded, it's not perfect and there is much that could have been better. However, it is what it is, so I choose to play and have tons of fun for what it is, not be miserable for what it is not. And I've done a little modding in FO3 & NV, so I have an idea of the work that goes into this stuff, and I can see how something can get overlooked during development. I dount there's a modder out there that didn't agonize over every jot and tittle of their mod, only to find stuff they missed after it was released. It happens.

I can tell you that the only thing stopping me from overhauling this game entirely is my relative skill compared to them, and even then I plan on changing that now that I have the time to dedicate to modding. I know for a fact that I could do it because I've taken on similarly large projects mostly by myself and still managed to produce the ideal result.

I say this in all sincerity and respect, that I look forward to trying it out if you release it to the public. Good luck to you.

And I don't even need to mention that there ARE specific instances where laziness was clearly an issue. Clipping is still a large problem in the game (and they say they went to lengths to avoid it.LOL) and its present even outside of places where clipping can be acceptable. That hair clips through certain helmets, daggers clip into armor, some shields clip into the body, etc etc are still present in the game is just bad.

Meh, minor clipping don't bother me that much. It was there in Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, so I guess I've gotten used to how some things clip with this engine. Would it be great if it didn't happen? Absolutely. But again, I play it for the fun and a means of stress relief and tend to look through some of the buggy stuff.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:10 pm

Rational advlts can acknowledge that the simplification of Elder Scrolls is just a symptom of the unfortunate reality of business, and that apportioning blame to Bethesda and Zenimax is unwarranted.

ALL businesses strive to maximise financial return - you can't reasonably begrudge Bethesda for behaving like any company would do in their position. The problem with commercial success it it tends to stunt creative growth, and Bethesda are not immune to such a phenomenon. The bigger the market, the more "mass appeal" the product must have.

So be upset that the intellectual depth of this series has waned, but rationally concede its inevitability. Decrying it (though sometimes a satisfying outlet) is ultimately pointless. The tragic reality is that intelligent, maths-and-literature classic RPG players like you and I are a curious relic that barely registers on the market demographic.

It took Morrowind two years to reach 1.4 million sales. Skyrim achieved nearly three times that amount - in two DAYS. The intellectual devolution (and consequent growth of mass appeal) is not going away, friend.

And always remember - we have at least mods to shape the game into something superior. Naturally that isn't ideal - but having the power to correct the game is nonetheless appreciated.

So onwards and downwards, I say!

Skyrim has the potential to be really amazing, I personally think that Oblivion had more replay value ---300 hours in IV and ---100 hours in V and I'm already bored.
It's pissing me off that Bethesda has stopped designing most of their games. That's why they're rusty and it's also why Brink was [censored].

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Gaming is larger in 2012 than in 2002, more copies are bound to sell. Maybe morrowind would have sold the way Skyrim has if skyrim was released in 2002 and morrowind today with up to date visuals of course.

There are a lot more gamers than there used to be. This game is still not COD and I think if they go a little more toward the morrowind end of the spectrum with TES6 it will sell much better than skyrim, just because TES will have become popular. I don't think aspects of this game were simplified for money, I think the todd howard is a dope.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:05 am

Most of those Black Isle/Bioware/Troika games were big hits back in the day. Some like Temple of Elemental Evil didn't do so great for various reasons. By the time of Call of Duty (2003) the landscape was already changing.

If you tried to remake Planescape or Arcanum with everything modeled in 3D and every dialog option voice-acted, it would cost just so much money. That is the main reason if you ask me. Only a few studios have ever made top-of-the-line RPGs, mostly because good writers are so hard to find. Even the top guys can't guarantee they will have a big hit. There is a limit to how much money can go into the product.

A game like Mass Effect is not so "big" in the open world sense, but the writing is great, and it sells well too. Old cranks have been saying since the dawn of history the public has been getting dumber. "Why don't they write epics like the Iliad any more?"

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:58 am

...Such as skill requirements for advancing in the guilds, disposition modifiers for NPS's, more detailed instructions from the game world so players who choose not to activate quest markers can learn enough from the game world to complete the quest, and dare I say it, spell creation.

I could go for all of those also. Not so much spell creation for me, but I agree the guild quests were fun, but too short, but could have used some skill requirements. My problem with them was they were just too short. I remember just begging the fighters guild questline in Oblivion to freaking end already, lol. These seemed to be over quickly after they started, and I play a very slow methodical style.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:03 am

Most of those Black Isle/Bioware/Troika games were big hits back in the day. Some like Temple of Elemental Evil didn't do so great for various reasons. By the time of Call of Duty (2003) the landscape was already changing.

If you tried to remake Planescape or Arcanum with everything modeled in 3D and every dialog option voice-acted, it would cost just so much money. That is the main reason if you ask me. Only a few studios have ever made top-of-the-line RPGs, mostly because good writers are so hard to find. Even the top guys can't guarantee they will have a big hit. There is a limit to how much money can go into the product.

A game like Mass Effect is not so "big" in the open world sense, but the writing is great, and it sells well too. Old cranks have been saying since the dawn of history the public has been getting dumber. "Why don't they write epics like the Iliad any more?"

Mass Effect is great, even though I frown on VA for the player character. Best story I have ever experienced. But Dragon Age: Origins, though using the silent protagonist as the PC, has over 1m words of dialogue and all NPCs speak their lines, it is just over 2 years old now and it sold tons. Dragon age II all voice acting, only 400K in words and didn't sell 1/3 of what its predecessor did. Planescape; Torment, considered too heavy in dialogue even in its day, had over 800K words. PS:T may be my fav all time RPG. Chris Avellone has few peers to match his writing :smile:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:28 am

I could go for all of those also. Not so much spell creation for me, but I agree the guild quests were fun, but too short, but could have used some skill requirements. My problem with them was they were just too short. I remember just begging the fighters guild questline in Oblivion to freaking end already, lol. These seemed to be over quickly after they started, and I play a very slow methodical style.

I was surprised they didn't use the radiant quests more in the early part of some of the guilds.I think the thieves guild was the best implementation of it

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:35 am

I guess that intellectual brilliance of Morrowind was why it was so easy to game and take advantage of. I don't believe that Skyrim has been dumbed down for the mass audience as I'm not overly pretentious. I listen to a ton of music however and it's interesting to track the progression of an artists sound throughout their albums as their first album is almost always very raw, and somewhat innovative, however their later albums generally take a turn becoming more polished, and cleaner. Most fans get upset and say they "lost their sound" or that they "sold out" when in reality they're progressing as musicians.

I tend to apply that same logic to games.

And I thought I was the only one thinking that way...

.

I might add something on my own: This is a generation conflict. There is no dumbing down, but an evolution (as stated above). Most people saying the game is dumbed down just miss something they are used to from earlier games. Some might prefer them, but Skyrim is not worse or more stupid or whatever...it is just different. I myself don't like everything about it (same goes for my fav musicians), but don't refer to the changes with a simple "everything is dumped down!". It is more like they questioned themselves how they could make for a better and more immersive world. To create an immersive world, most of the "math" should not be visible IMO. And that is what they went for. That is what Todd was talking about with his much quoted "spreadsheety". Unfortunately they also made cuts on parts that contradict this (no reaction from NPCs on status etc.), but the general direction is the right one.

So IMO it is not dumbing down but some steps in the right direction. Unfortunately they also took some steps back. In the end there is a great game that makes many things better (without "dumbing down" - god, I hate this expression) than its predessecors.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:28 pm

Yup I am beginning to discover mods and I think they are great.

I think I am going to have to play Morrowind to see what has changed about it.

There are loads of hand placed unique items, some with their own back stories and not just daedric artifacts. The daedric ruins are great and no level scaling to the degree that became Oblivion or even now with Skyrim, On and On. Oblivion and Skyrim have their pros and cons, but Morrowind was the best game for me.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:19 am

However, it is what it is, so I choose to play and have tons of fun for what it is, not be miserable for what it is not.

I'm not miserable, I'm just irked that I wasn't able to enjoy the vanilla game for as long as I enjoyed the vanilla versions of the past 2 games. I got about 1000 hours each into Morrowind and Oblivion before I started using mods. I've played a total of 147 hours and done pretty much everything worth doing (over multiple characters) and I feel little desire to go out and explore the rest of the world just for the sake of exploring like I could still do with Morrowind or Oblivion. As such, its gotten to the point where I need mods to stay interested. Its even got so bad that I've started modding the game myself, which I never felt the need to do with any of the past games. (though I wish I did though so I could make some more headway with my ideas for Skyrim)

I say this in all sincerity and respect, that I look forward to trying it out if you release it to the public. Good luck to you.

Oh I'll need it. Unless someone magically comes along and removes hardcoding, then things will become relatively more simple on my end of things. :whistle:

A game like Mass Effect is not so "big" in the open world sense, but the writing is great, and it sells well too. Old cranks have been saying since the dawn of history the public has been getting dumber. "Why don't they write epics like the Iliad any more?"

Well yeah, why don't they? :tongue:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:56 am

Zzar I do not always agree with you but you always have well thought out responses that I enjoy reading.Please do not write so tiny my eyes aren't what they used to be. :biggrin:

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Damn this forum. Nearly every time I post something it does that, and I end up having to either catch it before hand or edit it afterwords. I can assure you tiny posts are not intentional on my part.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:20 pm

best idea ever... lets remake ultima with these graphics.... make it incredibly hard release no patchs and have an even worse UI.... now thats a game...

edit- even better then above how about they make skyrim a pen n paper game base it off d20 and release miniatures for us to hand paint and craft! yeah complex!!! yeah!!! woo hoo!!!! what now!!!! ye!!!! punk!!!!

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:22 am

Mods won't get NPC's to notice what you've done- or talk to each other. Mods wont bring back attributes and their development. Can mods bring back lost spells and spell making? I don't know.

The OP said he accepts commercial realities- selling games. I don't. I don't accept we had to limit choices to sell games. That decision was a bad one.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:06 pm

Mods won't get NPC's to notice what you've done- or talk to each other. Mods wont bring back attributes and their development. Can mods bring back lost spells and spell making? I don't know.

The OP said he accepts commercial realities- selling games. I don't. I don't accept we had to limit choices to sell games. That decision was a bad one.

Mods can get all that to happen..... maybe for the exception of spell making.... who cares about spell making its the stupidest thing in oblivion....

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:59 am

Mods won't get NPC's to notice what you've done- or talk to each other. Mods wont bring back attributes and their development. Can mods bring back lost spells and spell making? I don't know.

The OP said he accepts commercial realities- selling games. I don't. I don't accept we had to limit choices to sell games. That decision was a bad one.

Ultimately if Beth would allow us the ability to change the game exactly to how we want it without having to jury rig anything (as in, where the most work in a mod is going to be in the new assets it creates, like textures, models, animations, etc, and not in actual coding or trying to work around hardcoded mechanics) then it wouldn't matter what Beth did with the vanilla games (beyond the story, but even then).

I can assure you if Beth allowed us this ability I'd follow everyone else in bowing down at their feet and throwing my money at the monitor but as it stands now they don't deserve such a decidedly gross reaction from me.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:02 am

Once TES:8 comes out everyone is going to be saying how skyrim was so much more complex...

edit- i hardly call morrwind complex hell the atributes and leveling is stupid in all the tes games, the DnD,Fallout 1+2+tactics were much better for rpg games...

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:20 am

I've played a total of 147 hours and done pretty much everything worth doing (over multiple characters)

No, you haven't. Skyrim doesn't spoon feed it to you like Morrowind and Oblivion did, which I think is the issue for some people. They feel the game was dumbed down but the problem is quite the opposite. I've played about 300 hours and it feels like I haven't even discovered half the content. Please don't try making mods until you've actually experienced the content. If you're having trouble, google a guide.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:10 am

Mods can get all that to happen.....

Not easily, and in a lot of cases not at all. New skills will never be added cleanly, if at all. A new attribute system will take some work to do (as poking around the CK it would appear that simply doing a new menu for attributes isn't going to cut it. And thats just presuming attributes as they were are even still there in some capacity) Spell making is in the same boat as attributes.

Once TES:8 comes out everyone is going to be saying how skyrim was so much more complex...

The idea is that TES: VIII doesn't end up a game that follows the current path Beth has been taking.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:36 am

whats the big deal on spell making it isnt special at all you only could make throw and touch spells... ....

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:04 am

Simplification isn't always bad. Attributes: annoying. Stupid. Especially Intelligence and Speed. I love how intelligence is the greatest thing that mankind could ever have and it's only useful for mages. Could they have been good, hell yeah! Look at the Legend of Dragoon! But still, getting rid of them is good either way.

Getting rid of Athletics: Genius. I don't want to run around at the speed of sound and level by holding down W and moving in one direction for 18 hours.

Acrobatics: Getting rid of it, genius. Possibility to do parkour existed but at Oblivion's state, Acrobatics is stupid. Jumping like you're on the moon doesn't fit with Skyrim's gritty realistic tone.

Getting rid of Mysticism and Spell Making - No. Mysticism is supposed to be this foundational science behind magic in lore and getting rid of it is sad. Spell Making, come on now! It's just as easy! Choose effects, delivery method, and power. Not that hard Bethesda!

Combat - Didn't expect anything else. I really do want to see a combat overhaul where it's more player skill oriented. Of course levels play into it but it should be more based on the player's ability of reaction and strategy. Really, only Sneaking requires player skill and even then, a noob with 100 sneak can sneak everywhere.

Level Scaling svcks. It's not as bad in Skyrim but still svcks.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:57 pm

No, you haven't. Skyrim doesn't spoon feed it to you like Morrowind and Oblivion did, which I think is the issue for some people. They feel the game was dumbed down but the problem is quite the opposite. I've played about 300 hours and it feels like I haven't even discovered half the content.

Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware the little fly on my wall that sees what I've done in the game posts on the forum. Sorry, but I have been through whats worthwhile, and whats left is not worthwhile at all. Silly micro-stories that tickle the mind for all of 5 seconds do not make for worthwhile content, sorry to break that to you.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:42 am

No, you haven't. Skyrim doesn't spoon feed it to you like Morrowind and Oblivion did, which I think is the issue for some people. They feel the game was dumbed down but the problem is quite the opposite. I've played about 300 hours and it feels like I haven't even discovered half the content. Please don't try making mods until you've actually experienced the content. If you're having trouble, google a guide.

That same exact experience can be applied to Oblivion and Skyrim. The thing that makes Morrowind longer is that it's very slow paced, not that it isn't spoon fed.