My two cents: The jump from Morrowind to Oblivion held much more of a "wow" factor because the technology gap was so significant. While the changes (visually) between Oblivion and Skyrim are big, they're not as big as fans have seen before.

My criticisms for Skyrim simply come from the fact that they left out a few things that could have monumentally improved the game-- such as challenging dungeon puzzles, expanded dialogue options with consequences, tweaked AI, a morality / alignment system that NPC's recognize, deeper guild systems, and so on and so forth. For the size, budget, and talent that Bethesda has these things should have been a reality-- sadly it wasn't.

Is Skyrim an amazing game? Yes. Could it have been a lot better? Hell yes.

Let's not get carried away, amazing game is somewhat of a stretch.

You should read some of my posts then

Please do not make ignorant statements about an entire group of people based off an experience with one individual. Thank you.

But of course, I always read your posts...something I learned from Morrowind, that you have to read the dialogue carefully or you might miss something (and finding it in your journal was such a PITA)

(I cut my teeth on "Adventure" and "Zork")

Modern games require less thinking, less imagination. There are less and more simple "puzzles", less and more simple mechanics and less and more simple interaction with NPC's. Death has little to no meaning, other than a speed bump in game play.

- All those books that Skyrim is stuffed with? In the old days it was almost required to read - keep - and remember many (if not all) as they were the only clues as to what was going on and needed to be done in the game world.

- It was actually kind of fun to have to chatup each and every NPC as each one may give you hints of where things were or what needed to be done in the game world.

The industry is still growing (despite the economy). Budgets for 1st tier titles keep growing. The graphics and sound of modern games are STUNNING and getting bigger and better.

Truth be known, I never finished Morrowind as I became bored to death with it. As a last resort I got some pleasure out of it by attempting to rid the entire world of Imperials. (everytime I entered town was an exciting experience!)

They say TES games are an "open world" that you can explore and play at random, however it FEEL's highly scripted.
Get a quest:

- conversation options with NPC's are selected from a menu
- your log tells you the steps that have to be done (and what order)
- your compass tells you where to go
- the on screen marker tells you where each item of interaction is

Forgetting of course many of the quests are the same. "Go to xxxx, fight your way through (pick one or more) falmer/dreiger/trolls/cats/wolf/bandit, retreve silly and mostly useless yyyy, keep or return yyyy to zzzz". Repeat.

I swear if I run into another gawdly voice that wants to "make me their champion" I think I'll puke! (how many of these useless things are in here?) Jump through some hoops for 'gawdly voice' and get some worthless junk.

You can play the entire game without sound, reading a book, remembering or planing anything.

Then again there was a point where games became so complicated that to play and enjoy them almost required purchasing a aftermarket "gamers guide". If you figure a 1st run title sets you back $60US and the guide another $30-40 thats a fairly large investment in something that may give you < 40hrs of game play.

So if your a developer how do you make your games "bigger" and requiring/giving longer game play?

- You could make them MORE complicated and offer less in game hints as to how to play. This is quickly defeated by websites, forums and gamers guides.
- You can put more content into the game making finding everything time consuming. (TES seems to be following this method)
- You can forgo and invert both of the above and make the game so short and so simple that "luck" , "timing" and "reflexes" are critical game play aspects.
(Most if not all of the modern 1PS'ers seem to be doing this)

I think little miss 'Blackbrier' may at some point kill off (poison) her entire family. I don't like any of them (except her) and think I'll do the job for her just for fun!

Please don't take all the fun out of ignorance and generalization...

Its a shame, but you cannot.
As so many NPC's are for no reason, a lot of the Blackbriar family is essential.
Im of the opinion that whoever thought it was a good idea to have any essential NPC's in the game needs another job, any job, but not in gaming.
It is so frustratingly annoying to be sold a world 'where you can do what you want', but no, you cant, cause someone has decided for you that this person is immortal.

Considering that his statement, like yours and pretty much everything mentioned in this entire thread, is purely a matter of opinion, it's not really much of a stretch at all.

Seriously, for all this talk of nostalgia and depth and cut content and atmosphere and immersion, all I see here are people essentially whining that their preferred game isn't considered the be all, end all of Elder Scrolls games by the rest of the community. Reading through the entire thread, I saw very few facts posted to back up people's arguments. This is understandable, of course, because the emotional connection people have to a particular thing is not something that can be measured.

Personally, I feel that Skyrim is a superior game in pretty much every way that matters, compared to Morrowind and Oblivion. Does this make it factually so? Of course not. No more than someone saying that Morrowind has better atmospher than later games makes it better than any other game. It's all subjective. No one is going to change my mind on this, and I doubt fans of any one game will ever be able to convince anyone else either.

Four types of people post here. Three of them are polarized:

Haters
Rabid 'beth-can't-do-wrong' fans
the disillusioned

then you have Everybody Else

You knew you couldn't do "anything you want" before you played. Or did you really think you'd be able to create a Monnrocket or a laserbeam? Did you think you could become a Sushi Chef in this game?. How about a US Navy Captain, did you think you could become that? First Dunmer to climb Mt Everest and create Philadelphia cream cheese? Exaggeration has it's place but your blanket statement here is so false mere exaggeration is no excuse

Hyperbole doesn't dismiss his claim, it's pretty obvious he meant within the bounds of the game. "Do anything you want" is part of the marketing phrase for the series.

...and it is so frustrating to be told that you can play and character or class that you want, and then realize that no you can't, because most of the classes and concepts don't work as intended and the content inside the game is designed to reward only a few of these "options" that you are promised during character development.

What class and concept doesn't work in Morrowind?


I know if I train noncombat skills in Skyrim I'll be slaughtered by Draugr Murderboss Deathkings

For some it seems to say "Imagine anything you want".

Agreed. But if it's used in a negative way, it's simply a means to throw something back in the developer's faces. That makes it a personal issue, not a game issue, wouldn;t you agree?

All of them except Battlemage (or a custom version of the same basic concept).

Stealth doesn't work against them?

I look at this two ways:

1) In game terms, meaning the reality of the game world, this is a death-dealing angry revenant. I'm not sure I could accept the idea that you could 'Calm' them
2) In playing terms, running away should be an option although I haven't tried this out yet. And if stealth is effective against them, then a player character that is bad at stealth should suffer the consequences of getting turned into a corpse

I had no trouble with a knight. I had no trouble with a merchant. I had a little trouble with mage.(Potion management is a must)

Playing Morrowind like an action game instead of an RPG WILL get you killed.

Which it should, I don't mind the difficulty with survival. But what I did mind was that so little substance was given to all the available options, yes you can play a merchant, but the loot and challenges of the game assume that you are playing a stealthy battlemage. And playing the game right (as in using the mechanics as they were designed to get the best out of your character) you always ended up with the same super-fast, flying, sword-wielding superhero.

Nonsense, balderdash and poppycock.
Way to exaggerate into the ridiculous.
None of anything you say makes any sense, it is the most nonsensical and outrageous list of stupid things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the game.
Do try to keep up.

It is by no means a stretch of the imagination that essential NPC's are the antithesis of what TES claims to stand for.
Essential NPC's have no business being in a TES game.
And that is the end of it.

I have no real issue with essential characters; I just wish the game would remove the flag as soon as they are no longer needed.

lol

What's so balderdash about that? If you can turn a microcosm like essentials into "can't do anything you want", then I have the same license to exaggerate too- or does your take on things trump mine just because you're emphatic?

I also did not comment specifically about essentials, by the way, but since you keep banging on as if I had, I'll take this chance to say you're right on this point- with the radiant quest system, there is no logical need for any 'essentials'- let them get killed, the RQ system is designed to take up the slack. Poor design concept if essentials are needed

But the 'do anything' aspect...we're both grown-ups here, I expect. You knew, and I know you knew. What's so bad about your knowing that I knew that you knew? Only you could know

Play New Vegas.
No essential NPC's.
Those very few that are expressly needed for the main quest either all have replacements to fill their shoes in case of death or simply do not reside in an area where they can be killed.
Skyrim on the other hand is full of essential NPC's that are essential for no reason, that remain essential after their questline and this is a detriment to the world.
Its not my world when someone else decides that Maven Black-Briar cannot be killed, it makes the game arcady, and yes, shallow.

It is not my marketing line to be what you want, do what you want.

I said in the above post that this is the end of it and I meant that. If you are too far into the Bethesda-apologetics camp to even acknowledge that essential NPC's simply have no business being in the game, that it is a cop-out, then there is nothing to discuss.

Do you even read what I post? I said that essentials are a poor design concept in the post of mine you quoted. How is that apologizing for Beth?? You're having a bad day, I'll leave it at that