I don't think Skyrim is a bad game, I in fact feel it is a great addition to the TES series. However I enjoy Morrowind deeply over Skyrim. I feel it had a deeper more immersive world then Skyrim does. As far as Oblivion goes I think they are pretty on par. Sure there are things Oblivion did better but there are things Skyrim does better too.

Fair enough, so Skyrim has some form of disposition, at least for NPC's that have scripted favors for you to perform. But can you alter it for an NPC that does not have a scripted favor for you to perform? Can you affect the disposition for any NPC? If you could then you could theoretically alter the disposition of the bandits in a cave, and live with them, and in Skyrim, there are caravans to raid . . . see where I am going with this? No one is saying they want to go back to Morrowind, with the NPC's that never went anywhere but just stood in the same spot all day and night. What we are saying, or at least what I am saying is that Skyrim could be improved by reintroducing some of the features of prior games. Then you could do things that you could not do in either Skyrim or Morrowind.

Really?

Because I look at Skyrim as a TES game, and when I compare it to Morrowind, I find Skyrim to be a superior game...

So, how about you don't make generalizations and don't try to speak for everyone, k?

More factions and options with them would be great, being able to join the cult of Potema rather than destroying it and such. But it works best if scripted. Have a bandit band that you can actually join through scripted choices, and then content and missions that relate to that faction. Making every generic NPC a potential ally just doesn't add much, it becomes a case of Daggerfalls content with no purpose problem.

And being able to destroy the thieves guild instead of joining it. I really hope they add that with DLC.

for me, skyrim is the very definition of simplicity. do i want my rpg's to be simple? no.

i travel in a good graphical world, i level what i use and pick some ok perks.

as well, i am forced to roleplay this game because of its overall meaninglessness.

^ This guy.

/appplaud

In fact living among bandits is what roleplaying is all about, that argument only makes sense if this was a shooter or a platform game.

Skyrim does not have disposition.
Its simply not in the game.
This is the same sort of malarky as the people that insist nothing was removed, because we still have attributes.
No we do not.
What Skyrim has is that an NPC greets you either neutrally, happily or cranky. Thats it. There is no disposition. I go deliver some letter and suddenly I can take your stuff. Woohoo.
Morrowind had disposition, Oblivion made it practically useless and governed by a non-rpg minigame and Skyrim has it removed from the game alltogether. If there was disposition I would be able to see it on a scale of 1-100 and influence it.

Ignore the complaints, say to yourself "I am not the game maker and need not care."

Truth is most likely that Bethesda cannot be bothered to listen to everyone's complaints, and so some feel left alone and seek to be heard by anyone on the forum who will listen.

Morrowind and Oblivion were great games. Some had too much fun and have become depressed and now cannot imagine to have as much fun with Skyrim.

I am sure one can find such sadness within the game as part of some small, tragic story, too.

there is some truth in what you say: i expected huge things from skyrim. and, what i got was less than other games.

But it is one of the things that people complain most about with Skyrim - the lack of consequences and effects on the world. So when Morrowind have you spend a bunch of time and energy to accomplish something and it has no effect whatsoever on the world, then that is what roleplaying is all about, but when Skyrim doesn't provide you with a completely re-designed population when you complete something, then it is missing rpg-elements. This is contradicting and hypocritical and simply a case of seeing anything in Morrowind as great, but when Skyrim has the same issue, it is flawed.

What are you talking about? The fact that the bandits would be neutral and speak with you without instantly trying to murder you is exactly the point. Just like some of us would like to be able to become neutral with an otherwise hostile faction in Skyrim or piss off scripted friendly npc's to the point of attacking you on sight. That is an effect on the world. I mean hell, you can become the champion of the Stormcloaks and wear their gear everywhere and the guards in Imperial cities would still obliviously rant to you about the arrow to their knee. How is that not a major leap downward from Morrowind's factions and disposition?

And don't try to pull the nostalgia card on me - you instantly lose. You see, I played Morrowind after Skyrim to see for myself what all the fuss was about. I started TES with Oblivion.

there are some things you can't go back in time and test objectively:

graphics at Oblivion's time were award winning but will not be breathless today.
Going back and playing games 5 years or longer from today is a lifetime of development. It's like listening to an early Beatles album and wondering what all the fuss was about.

But one thing is certain; both Morrowind and Oblivion were more involved games, particularly with character building. Oblivion has NPC interactions with themselves and the player that Skyrim does not. Once again, going back in time and finding these interactions outdated or quaint will not address the issue about 'what the fuss is all about." Just think what Today Skyrim could have been if Bethesda had put as much effort into NPC communications.

Skyrim is a wonderful game, but it is Fallout 4. It does not have the replay value for many people that the previous Elder Scrolls games do, particularly because of the loss of choices in building a character.

papercut-

i think you should look at it from the following perspective: why do people keep playing morrowind despite its flaws? and, nostalgia CAN NOT be in your mindset.

oldgrog-

i would argue with you day and night that skyrim is NOT fallout4. fallout3 is a masterpiece that skyrim can't touch.

but, your views on character creation/development hold me back, lol.

I already have that explained to me, Morrowind fans always use inaccessible terms such as:
Immersion, Depth, Atmosphere, Soul, Element, Sense, Feel etc.

I get it, it's like a spiritual journey, however I can't discuss or compare the game from such a perspective, I have never had that journey. All I ever compare and discuss is mechanics. I stay away from any comparisons based on graphics, visuals or emotional attachment.

If people want to argue that Morrowind has more "soul" than I won't get into a debate about it, but if people claim that Morrowind has great mechanics and design, I will say "hang on a minute, I have some issues here...".

seriously, i was hoping for a serious answer. since, I keep playing morrowind.

those attributes you give it are almost exactly it. what is the IT despite the obvious flaws?

morrowind is definitely more complex. and, having given it some time to set... spiritual might be an apt term. even for those unfortunately less inclined.

for me, it was definitely a wow, this is what games can do. this is serious stuff. and, look at the industry now.

back in morrowind days, it was nothing near as it is now. not even close. the money differential is too huge. those who say a serious, complex rpg can't work are seriously mistaken. their argument is false.

anyways, i ramble...

A good example for this is the guard, who took an arrow to the knee. That was his moment where he stopped being an adventurer.

Another one is Jon Battle-Born. He stands in front of Belethor's shop and each time I come past him he says, "Do you know what is wrong with Skyrim these days?"

Just two examples.

i actually really like that conversation. it's good stuff.

edit: the battleborn one, lol.

It definitely had flaws, I don't think anyone will deny that? Perfect games don't exist. But what is undeniable that Morrowind had a lot of interesting mechanics that added flavour to the game which instead of being improved, were cut. And I'm not talking about the silly mechanics like athletics (even though there are a lot of players who liked some of those too) but basic RPG essentials like a system that simulates having an impact in the world, i.e. disposition. The proper one, not the 4 flavor pie system from Oblivion.

No you do not. Nobody likes to listen to sad people.

sad people means others have problems which means someone needs help, which means, i can help

Disposition, even though doing the little pie chart mini-game svcked, alone is a mechanic that is deeper than current Speechcraft.

Really? I did the murder quest for the Ordinator guard captain and a few ordinators went from a disp of 25 to 37. They're still distrustful of me, but not quite so much. If I join the temple, they'll be a bit more amenable to me. Give fargoth his ring back and he tells his buddy Arrille about it and I get a discount. I joined a great house and the other houses hated me and tried to interfere with my plans to build my own stronghold. I stole the coded package from the TG for the Fighter's Guild and the Cammona Tong prospered at their expense, I was no longer welcome in the TG. Screw the trials, I killed vivec and took wraithguard from him and ended Ur without the help of him or the ashlanders. The blight storms stopped. I sided with Hircine during the bloodmoon and sabotaged the skaal's attempts against him. Fort Frostmoth is destroyed. Commander Carius is dead. I aided in the creation of an entire village for the East Empire Company and saved it instead of going along with the plan to make it fail. Temple members don't look kindly upon me if I join the Imperial Cult. Fame has an impact on the world(As it did in Oblivion too) How should I finish the Mage's questline? Do I have the patience to deal with Trebonius's request, or do I challenge him outright for leadership?


Guards might make passing remarks about your accomplishments...but often they're completely wrong or even inappropriate when it comes to skill remarks. Oblivion even did better in this regard. If I side with Ulfric, shouldn't Elisif refuse to speak to me or Tullius try to arrest me? If I've been helping the legion out with hold conquests and I talk to ulfric, shouldn't he be angry or hostile?

the discussion on meaningfulness isn't done?

skyrim is nothing, compared.